– Welcome everybody to today’s Building My Legacy podcast. I have with me Michelle Warner. Michelle was introduced to me by some people out in New York who have worked with her because she has this incredible system for looking at how we network. And I think, you know, we talk about networking so loosely, we go to networking groups, we talk, we share, we do our one-three minute elevator pitch and we walk away. And so many people find that it is not as productive as it needs to be. And I think part of it is because we are not doing it purposefully as you have designed a system to do. So before we get into it, Michelle’s company is called or her course system that she has is called Networking That Pays. And I want you to be, I wanna say that again, because people may want to pick up on the class, we’ll also have information about it in the show notes so people can go there, but the course is called Networking That Pays. Michelle designs tiny companies that are built for the long run. She has had more than 15 years of experience working with companies, helping them to grow. And she has really figured out how to do that through, part of it as her sense of how to connect people and how to build things. And through that has created this networking process and system. When I first heard about it, I was incredibly impressed. And then when I met you, Michelle, I was even more impressed. And I said, people must know about what it is that you do because I think it could transform people’s ability to network effectively and to get results. So having said that, Michelle, tell us a little bit about you, what got you started in this, and then let’s talk about where you’re going and how you use this.

– Yeah, absolutely, and thank you so much for having me. It’s funny how I got connected into networking, I never would’ve thought I would become the networking person. But I was in a situation several years ago now, I had graduated from my MBA program and I founded a tech company, and my whole background to that date had been in digital marketing. So I knew how to grow an email list, I knew how to do mass marketing. This tech company, however, was headquartered in Denver and we were selling to governments, local governments and local nonprofits and big, big cities around the U.S. Well, guess what? Those officials are very uninterested in joining an email list. So I had to figure out how to connect with them directly, and they were really uninterested in meeting somebody from Denver who’s trying to sell them something for their local systems. And the reason I shared that I started this company right out of business school, was that in business school, I had actually gone through two semesters of training on network science. I had no idea that the way networks operate was something that people built a career out of studying, we had professors who this was what they had taught and so when I found myself in this situation, I’m an introvert, I am not a natural networker, and I found myself in the situation of having to figure out a way to build relationships with these folks, and I thought, oh, wait, there’s a science to this. And so I went back to what I had just learned and I created, I systematized it. I created a system for myself and I used that in my startup to a lot of success, and it just became embedded in the way that I operated, and fast forward 10 plus years and I had started a new business where I work with entrepreneurs helping to fix their stalled out businesses. And as I was meeting with them and trying to fix their businesses, I thought, wait, their network has a huge missing fundamental, and a reason why their businesses have stalled. So I kind of dusted off my system, wrote it up in a Google doc and started sharing it and realized how the systematizing of a network makes it doable. The word networking makes a lot of people including myself shutter when you think of a traditional environment, I am the queen of hiding at the bar or in the bathroom at a traditional networking event, I just want nothing to do with it. But when you systematize it and think about it as science, not only does it become doable, ’cause you have steps to follow rather than just walk into a room, but you also know why you’re doing it, and that makes you much more powerful and willing to do it because you don’t feel like you’re reacting to what’s happening around you, you feel like you can be proactive and go make things happen for yourself.

– Got it. So where do you wanna start? Do you wanna talk about the steps or the why?

– Let’s talk about the why because I think the why is the interesting part of this, right? And to me the why is why network and why is this important? And to me it is because the network is the foundation of everything you do in your business or in your career. And every other effort that you make, any other kind of marketing or visibility tactic that you’re trying to apply again, whether you’re building a business, or you’re trying to build your career and be seen by leaders in your organization, all of that is amplified and done better if there is a network to support it, right? So even if you’re doing mass marketing, if you have a network to help spread the visibility of that mass marketing, it is going to do better. If you’re trying to build visibility as you build a career or as you build whatever you’re trying to build, if there’s a network amplifying what you’re doing, it is going to work better. So that’s why I’m so passionate about it ’cause your network on day one, it’s gonna get you your first tiny baby step. It’s gonna get you your first sale or maybe your first promotion, but then on day 365 on day 10 or on year 10 on year 15, as you have built momentum, it’s just gonna keep building with you and amplify and multiply the impact of anything that you’re doing.

– Okay, so let’s talk about network because I get network and I think a lot of people get the concept, that’s why they run around to all these different groups, And I’ve done it, I’ve been there, so I understand this process. So you sit there and you go, okay, why isn’t this working? And part of it from what I’ve seen is there are people who will never be really a network that you could build from, so you have to choose that network, and then in a sense, rate them between who really is hot or warm or cares, I guess is a better… And who is interested. It’s like, well that’s interesting, I’ll keep it in mind. And then who is just totally not interested. So talk a little bit that those must be some of the steps that you go through, but talk a little bit about that process and what you do.

– Yep, You nailed it. Those are the first steps you go through, So in my system the first half is kind of setting up your network and creating your intentions and your goals, and then the second half is actually going and doing the thing.

– Okay, So before we go there, you set up your network. How do you set up a network?

– Yeah, those are the first couple of steps. So we’re not gonna talk about how to actually network yet, but that’s where people screwed up ’cause they just go and they start networking. And if you haven’t taken a moment to get intentional about what you’re doing with that, that’s when you’re gonna run into trouble. So how you do that is to number one, you set a networking goal and that might sound simplistic, but people oftentimes don’t do it at all, they just kind of assume it’s to generally meet people who are going to help them and like any kind of specific goal, that’s not at all specific. So we wanna get a little more specific about the goal and we’ll talk about how to do that in a second. And then once you have your networking goal, you can create what I call an ideal connection avatar or an ideal persona. This is the same concept as a buyer or client persona, the same way those of us in small business, or even in corporate know who our ideal client is, we should know who our ideal connection is because then we can go meet those people. We can figure out where those people are and invite them into our network. And so the way that you pick your networking goal is you get really honest about what specifically you’re wanting and where people screw this up is they are generally thinking about networking with somebody who could be their end client or you know, the end result. And that’s kind of the equivalent of cold calling. And it can be a really frustrating way to connect with people. I think about a networking goal is one step higher in the funnel is how I refer to it of who knows your ideal client or who knows the person that you ultimately wanna be connected with. And that’s who you should be networking with because then you can build a stable relationship with that person over time, as opposed to trying to connect with one person that you need in that moment who then you’re gonna sell something to or buy something from and then you’re gonna move on. Let’s use an example of a really simple example of you’re trying to build a house, right? And so your networking goal, if you’re doing it incorrectly might be, I need to meet, you know, the electrician and the plumber and all of these people individually who I’m just gonna make one transaction with and then move on. Instead, if over time you have a long term goal of building the best house, you wanna meet whoever knows all the best contractors in town who can steadily introduce you one by one to all the best people so that you don’t need to individually go try to meet the 10 perfect contractors you need, you wanna meet and build a relationship with the one person who knows all of them so that as you need each one of them, they can introduce you to them. And then once you have identified that networking goal of whoever sits that one step ahead of the funnel of, you know, your ultimate end user, then you can profile them in the way you would build a client persona and you can say these are the characteristics of that person, and this is where that person probably hangs out. And once you do that, you can insert yourself into those spaces of where the serendipity of getting lucky meeting someone is exponentially higher. And you immediately know when you meet someone, you know, you can have some questions in mind that very quickly, frankly screen people of whether they meet your persona characteristic or not. And if they do, you can decide whether you wanna be connected with them. And if they don’t, you can move on. And that way you are in charge of the process as opposed to being reactive to anybody who happens to outreach to you or anybody who happens to be in a room. I don’t know if everyone has this experience, my experience before I was clear in this process was I would go into a networking room, I would kind of meet everyone, hope I got lucky, leave with a big stack of business cards that then I felt guilty about never following up on, but I had no idea why I would ever follow up with these people. It was just this huge waste of time. Now I go into a room and I know the one type of person I’m trying to meet and that’s the only thing that I care about.

– Got it, okay, so I have in my mind, you Michelle walking into a room with a great big sign on your chest that says, Michelle, I am looking for this avatar, are you this person? And they’ll go, nope, not me, go talk to that person. Is that what you’re doing?

– Yeah, essentially, and I’m doing that because again, back to network science, we don’t have that many spots open in our network. Robin Dunbar, who’s a British anthropologist and sociologist has done a lot of research that shows we can only be stably connected to 150 people at a time in with what he calls a stable social relationship. And that includes your family and your friends. So if we’re talking professional connections, you might have room for 50 of them. So you can’t maintain relationships with a bunch of people who, frankly, when there’s no win-win there. And that’s why you wanna be thinking really clearly about who do you wanna be connected with and intentional about it because you don’t have infinite room, you have 50 slots. Do they get one of those 50? And if they get one of those 50, I guarantee you can also provide them value, right? This is a two-way relationship. And when you’re intentional about that, about who you’re inviting in, you do a much better job of who you give your time to. And so then the ROI of every relationship is much higher.

– Wow, you know, it is being intentional and as you’re speaking, one of the things that you see as you watch leaders who have really emerged to the top, who’ve really made a difference, they tend to have a small group, they call on one another and sometimes they’re perceived as being cliquey and they can become that because they may not let others in and they may close opportunities that they really need. It’s almost like you need to then be able to look at those 50 or 100 and evaluate where are they up to date. Is it that relationship changing?

– Absolutely, absolutely. So this we want it to be a semi permanent group by which I mean the reality of most people, and by the way these people are called your weak ties, you have strong ties and you have weak ties. Your strong ties are the 10 people who are closest to you in this world, and you may not even have 10 of them. We’re talking spouses and best friends. Then all the rest of the 140 slots that are left in your network are weak ties. And most people don’t know these weak ties exist. And so what they do is they just let them float in and out without any intention. And those are the moments when, you know, something comes up and we think, gosh, I wish I could ask John for a favor or I wish I could ask John for this, but I haven’t talked to him in 18 months and now this is gonna be awkward. So what we wanna do is be more intentional about knowing week ties exist and having relative stability with that group. And again, when we’re talking professional, maybe it’s about 50 people. The flip side danger of not knowing, you know, we have the situation most people are in where they just don’t know these people exist at all. The flip side is what you describe, where you are too tight with that 50. I am a big proponent that your life is the average of, you know, your business is the average of your network quality. So you should always be pushing that higher and assuming that 20% of your network is gonna turn over, that is much better than 100% of it constantly turning over, ’cause there’s just no stability, but it’s enough flexibility that you are bringing new voices in or you don’t get, frankly, you don’t get stuck. If you’re in a network that kind of stalls out and you still have ambition, you have the ability to continue pushing forward, but even if you push forward to the top, you wanna be bringing in new voices and welcoming new people as folks drop off. So yeah, you bring up something that’s really important. We want the benefit of stability, ’cause almost nobody has any stability now, but we don’t want to then course correct too far into absolute stability.

– Okay, so part of the process is knowing weak ties versus strong ties. And then what else is included in this process?

– Yeah, so the kind of first half the science foundation side of this process is knowing that your strong ties and weak ties exist, understanding that Dunbar’s number, that there are 150 people that are possible for you. And then building that, understanding your goal and your avatar so you can start understanding who do you want to theoretically offer a spot in your network to you, don’t literally send them a card, inviting them into your network but in your mind, and then you flip onto the action side and you say, okay, how do I go make this happen? Now I’ve identified who I wanna be connected with. So how do I make it happen? And that becomes a process of auditing your current network and saying, now that I have clarity over who I want in my network, who still fits or who do I know that I wanna solidify a relationship with? So who is a weak tie now that I really wanna reactivate and make a commitment to, again, internally, you don’t have to tell the person you’re doing this, but who do I wanna make a commitment that like, they’re gonna be a member of my network. And then you wanna go say, okay, I know that now. So how many more people do I have an opportunity to meet and be connected with? And how can I start figuring out where they are and how I can be introduced to them? And there are, you know, three or four ways that you can be introduced to people in a way that’s not transactional, instead is very relationship building. And then it becomes a game of continually putting yourself into situations where you can meet the people you wanna meet and having your tools so that you can get introduced to them in an appropriate way that builds a relationship and then having tools to maintain the relationship. And what that looks like in my system is a five day a week outreach of which you can cheat on, but the general idea is that once you have a stable relationship, you can send one message a day and it’s only gonna take you five minutes to send that message. And that is going to keep all of those folks in your network activated.

– Okay, so to all 150, if I have 150, I send a message a day to them.

– Not all 150 every day, no.

– Oh, okay, so to whom am I sending a message every day?

– Yeah, so that’s a process based on what your business goals are, but the idea is you send one message a day, it’s gonna take you five minutes a day and over the course of a year that keeps your entire network active.

– Got it, so some people may get several messages in a month. Other people, it might be quarterly.

– Yeah, we have a process where we actually tie it to your business goals because again, this is, you know, this is the business side of your network, so once you are clear who you wanna be connected with and how you’re connected with them, now we look at what are your quarterly goals and who is important to those goals this quarter. And then we think about how, you know, who can help you move forward your goals this quarter. And they might get more messages this quarter than somebody who you just wanna check in on and say hello, because you wanna stay connected with them and you value the relationship, but they’re not directly connected to your goals right now.

– So I wanna talk a little bit about that messaging because I think where people really go wrong and I’ve done it, I’m a part of the problem where you get taught how to send messages and much of it is meaningless. Yes I wanna get connected, yes I want to get to know you and but then what? And that’s really what people want to know is, so then what? And so talk a little bit about that messaging, what’s the purpose of the messaging? ‘Cause I think a lot of effort goes out that’s not purposeful.

– A hundred percent agree. I think the number one reason that it goes out that’s not purposeful is people don’t have clarity, right? They don’t know their goal and they don’t know their avatar. So that’s the number one issue. And once we have clarity there, there is still a problem which I’ll talk about in a second, but it’s much less. We have a lot of connecting going on that frankly is not a win-win. And so when it’s not a win-win, the messages are always going to be awkward and pointless and it’s gonna feel forced. So once we eliminate that situation, we’re in a much better starting spot. But it is still, there has to be a point behind the messages and you also don’t wanna be constantly sending messages to people just for the sake of sending a message. So I’m a big proponent, we talk in my course about three specific ways to get introduced to people that are valuable and specific and solidify a relationship in such a way that you don’t have to constantly be pestering them. If you are setting the correct foundation for your relationship and you are following up in the correct ways, you actually don’t have to talk to people that often in order to keep the relationship solid because when you’re communicating or communicating in specific and personal ways that you are remembered, and these are moments of quality for the person on the receiving end. We, and I call it sticking out like a sore thumb in a positive way because nobody knows how to message, they just send out tons of spam, frankly, that when you actually connect in a way that only takes you five minutes a day, there’s a reason for five minutes, not just to save you time, but it should be that short, but have specificity in it to the point that someone gets your message, and they’re like, wow, I have been seen and I’ve been noticed. And that’s what we talk about is how to craft introductions that do that. And then how to craft follow ups that are fast but meaningful. And we talk about doing that by adding specificity in, and there’s different ways to add specificity and a couple of other, you know, good communication practices that frankly just allow your words or your message to go miles further than a normal message would.

– Wow, okay, and that is something that people can pick up and learn by taking your course-

– Yeah we offer templates, we offer templates of how to do it and of course encourage people to move past the templates, but it gives you that idea of what does a specific message look like as opposed to just a… the example I use is your classic, somebody posts an inspirational saying on LinkedIn or on Instagram or whatever, and a million people comment, thanks, I needed to hear that today. Great, like you have just wasted your time. Nobody is going to remember that message. But if you say something like, oh, my gosh, thank you. I read this today and it helped me accomplish X, Y, Z, thank you for sharing it. That comment is going to be remembered, right? Because you have shared how their work had a very specific impact on your day.

– Got it.

– And those two comments take the same amount of time to type. And this is not the only way to do it on social media, but that’s just an example of how you can very easily flip the script and deepen and maintain a relationship as opposed to just basically spam someone.

– Wow, okay, that’s wonderful. What else do we need to do differently?

– That’s the big thing is again, like the massive thing you need to do is have some intention behind it. And then the number two thing you need to do is see people, And that is with the specificity and the frankly, the way you are able to see people is because you only have 50 of the correct people, you have time for them.

– So when you talk about seeing people, to me what that means is I know what they do, I know what their challenges are, and I may not have any solution to those challenges, I just know that those exist and that’s what they’re dealing with, do I have that correct?

– Absolutely, and then if you see something that maybe of helped to them, you can send that, and we hear a lot of advice about if you wanna connect with someone, send them something that you think they might be interested in. But if you don’t know that, if you haven’t taken the time to actually know that person and think about that person, what you end up sending them is generic, and probably not at all related to what they’re going through, but like you’re sharing, if you know that person and you know their challenges, you know what their hopes and dreams are. And you take the time to think about those things, which is not difficult when you have a limited number of people in your network, then you run into things and you can send them something that’s absolutely spot on.

– Got it.

– One of my favorite things, it’s part of my own personal gratitude practice, but it can extend to your network, when you have a moment where you’re… This happens to me when I’m walking the dog and I will be thinking about how things are going with business and I will think about a conversation I had nine months ago with somebody that sparked an idea that has now come to fruition. So you know what? I come back to my desk and I send them a two second thank you note. And I say, you probably don’t remember this conversation we had nine months ago, but I wanna come back to it ’cause I wanna tell you that today I was reflecting how that kicked off this whole project and here’s where that project is today and thank you that would’ve never existed without you. We all have those moments every single day and we never think to swing back to the other person and thank them.

– Very true.

– And that solidifies relationship way more than a daily, hey, how are you doing message. I send one of those specific messages in nine months. That relationship is solid, ’cause you remember that. As the receiver, you are blown away when you receive that message.

– That is, you know what, you’re absolutely on target there. I have one other question. So I have 150 people let’s say in my network, that still is a lot of people.

– It is.

– So how do I manage this and my communications with these 150 people?

– Yeah, so the first thing is to break it down and remember that of those 150 people, some of your family and friends that are just gonna be taken pretty automatically, those are gonna be taken care of, some of them are acquaintances around town, you know, for me, my dog trainer is a very important week tie, I want her on our side. So those folks I just run into in my daily life, I don’t really have to think about it. What I have to think about is valuing her in the moments I see her. So you’re already slicing off a good half to two thirds of that list just by people in your regular life. On the professional side, two things, number one, 150 is the max size. If you are listening to this and you’re thinking I’ve never networked, oh my God, that sounds like a mountain climb. Your world will change with 1, 2, 5, 10 of the right connections. So I always tell people, start where you are and know that things will change if you’re just connecting with a few of your correct people. And then how you keep track of them going forward. You know, if you’re a spreadsheet and database person, we have those in the course, you can keep track of them by spreadsheet and database, or if you’re just kind of a field person, I’m gonna go, you know, a little bit, a little bit woo on you, if you will, it’s a little bit of that reticular activation or whatever they call it, when you’ve written down those names and you know who you value, you see opportunity and you remember them in ways that you don’t when you’re thinking about when your brains just scattered across the whole universe of folks. And I know that that’s a really simplistic way of just saying, it’ll work itself out, but it works itself out.

– Got it. So keeping track is really important. How do you set your network to your goals? I mean, what’s fascinating about this to me, Michelle is, your goals now have another dimension to them that is really important. But it’s something we don’t tend to think about nor do we tend to teach it.

– Exactly, and it’s so powerful when you bring them into your goals, ’cause you, again, this is when you start thinking, how can these people, how can my network help me multiply the impact of what I could do on my own? So the way I tie it is let’s say I am launching a new product at the end of a quarter or let’s say we’re in Q1 and I’m launching a product in Q2. In Q1 I am thinking about who do I know who can introduce me to some folks to put me on their podcast? Who do I know who can expand my network and reach into their week time network to find some publicity opportunities for me? Who do I know whose audience would probably be interested in mine and we can talk about collaborative promotion? And you’re just thinking ahead to I have a launch happening or I’m gonna be gunning for a promotion in Q2. What are you doing in Q2 that people could help you with if you started seeding the impact for that in Q1. And so in Q1, those people who can potentially help you line things up for Q2, you prioritize them in Q1, right? That’s what we were talking about, you pick, you know, 10 of your 50 or whatever who would actually be able to help you and you make sure those are the people I personally plan around each quarter, like that’s who I’m for sure touching base with. Then everybody else can kind of, I reach out to them when I think of them and they take care of themselves. But I am intentional about thinking in terms of who can help me this quarter and who can I touch base with this quarter ’cause I know they can help me next quarter. And that’s when you get a multiplicative effect from applying your network to whatever you are trying to do yourself individually.

– You know what I like about what you’re talking about is when I first started doing digital marketing and learning all the processes that were involved, I go to one conference and I go, yeah, I have to learn that. And then I go to another one and I go, I have to learn that one too. And it felt overwhelming ’cause there were so many, and you know what, that’s how we also treat the people. We dump on them because we’re overwhelmed. And they get it because, and I think maybe Michelle right now with all of what’s happening, people don’t need another dump. They need chaos to be taken out. They need to have people come who are very intentional and will help them as well to accomplish something.

– Exactly, and that’s what happens when you’re intentional about who you’re connecting with. They know that you see them, they know that you reach out to them on the days that you think about them when you’re walking your dog and you reach out in gratitude, they know that they’re valued by you. So when you do show up and say, hey, I know that you know this person and I would love to be introduced, would you mind doing that? Number one, you have made their job easy, you have told them exactly what you would like them to do for you, and you know that they can do it and they want to do it for you because you have shown up for them. And that’s another thing we talk about with the specificity is really thinking through your asks and being intentional about what you’re asking a person for so it’s not only what you need, but it’s easy for them. You know, a lot of my folks want to ask people for referrals. And I say, you know, that’s actually a really difficult ask for somebody not because they don’t wanna do it, but if you were to ask me for a referral to your business today, I would want to fulfill that, but the odds of me being able to me knowing somebody today who needs your services are actually not that high. So I would leave our conversation feeling really bad and guilty that I wasn’t able to help you. But if instead, I know that you know someone whose podcast I would love to be on, I can and I know that you know them all enough that it would not be an awkward introduction, I can very easily reach out to you and say, hey, you know, would you mind making this connection for me? And that’s easy for you, you can do it in five minutes. You’re happy to do it, done, win-win. And I’ve left you feeling good that you helped me as opposed to bad that you can’t help me. So there’s all, it’s just, everything is about intention and specificity and honoring the relationship, instead of, as you say, dumping on people kind of your entire to-do list.

– I love that example because you’re absolutely right, when we ask wrongly, we leave people feeling badly instead of empowered and a part of your life. And then we’ve kind of diminished that relationship. It’s gone from weak to weaker.

– Yeah, ’cause you’ve left them feeling bad, and the tragedy of that is you haven’t asked something inappropriate, you’ve asked something that they would love to help you with and they’re just not able to. And that stinks. So yeah, you wanna ask something that frankly deepens the relationship too. A lot of our, and that’s another thing we screw up as we think of asks only as transactional, when the right asks actually deepen relationships. We’re human beings, we wanna help each other if we respect and have that relationship in place.

– I like that, if we ask in the right way, we deepen our relationship.

– Yeah.

– That is great. Michelle, what have we left out that we should be talking about that the audience should know about?

– I think we have hit on most of it, I mean, I would just love your audience to know that networks do not have to be this intimidating, weird, transactional thing. They can be beautiful, wonderful things and they are doable if you… I think the most surprising thing that I have learned from sharing this system is when I got into it, I thought it would help make networking doable for introverts. And that was really important to me ’cause you kind of have a system to hide behind, I’m an introvert, I get it. So that was really important to me and so the system, what has surprised me though is how it focuses extroverts. So it’s really fun for me ’cause it works for both groups. Introverts, this makes it doable for you, you know, something that was just really intimidating, talk it down to size, but extroverts who are out there connecting with everyone and everyone and wasting a ton of their great connecting energy, the system focuses them and their results are absolutely insane. So I think that is, I don’t know if that’s something we missed talking about, but it has been one of the fun surprises for me.

– I love that. So for those of you who are listening to this podcast, remember to visit Michelle’s Networking, Networking That… What was it?

– Yeah, so there’s actually a free training I go over all this at, if you go to themichellewarner.com/freetraining, it’s right there and then the course is actually Networking That Pays. So you can go to networkingthatpays.com and read about the course. But if you want to kind of get a systematized overview of everything we’ve talked about today, that free training will walk you through it.

– Yeah, and it’s a very affordable course and my goodness, it will save you so much time. I know, I’m gonna be signing up for it because I think I need a process, I need to be focused. I need to hone in on what it is that I’m doing. So I’m very grateful to you for the work you’ve done, Michelle.

– Well, and I’m so glad that we’ve connected and thank you for having me here and I cannot wait to see you inside of the course.

– Great, and thank you for being on the podcast today, Michelle, and for those of you who are listening to the podcast, thank you for being with us today. Remember to visit our website at wwwbuildtomorrow.com with the number two and start with collaboration. Those of you who are looking to collaborate this networking process, I think is going to be key to one of your keys anyway to success. So please keep that in mind and again, thank you Michelle, for being with us today.

– Oh, thank you for having me, it’s been such a pleasure.