Speaker 1: 00:00 1-2

Speaker 2: 00:01 Oh, it’s best for your broadcast. You’ll have more. It’ll be a little faster that way. Um, hi everybody. This is Lois Sonstegard. I’m here with Sally Helgeson this morning. I am so pleased to bring Sally to you because she has spoken volumes to be in the book that she has written about women in leadership and some of the barriers that women experience in their leadership role. So I just wanna tell you a little bit about Sally. Sally. Sally has written many books. But what she, the book that has just spoken to me so much is her most recent book, which is how women rise and the barriers that women put in their lives to prevent them from rising, from getting that promotion, from getting the raise. And she has done some marvelous research that she is eager to share with us today. She’s also written some other books that I wanted you to become aware of, one is the female vision, women’s real power at work, the female advantage, women’s ways of leadership, the web of inclusion and you architecture for building great organizations. So I don’t think there’s anybody more capable of speaking. I met, she speaks to corporate groups all over the world about the role of women in corporations. So Sally, I just would like you to share with us a little bit this morning. Um, how did you get into this business?

Speaker 1: 01:44 How did I get into this business? Good morning, Lois. Good to be with you. Um, I was in the 1980s, uh, working in corporate communications, uh, had a number of jobs that were good and interesting jobs, but it was very clear to me that the companies that I work for you, no matter how good they were, did not really have a clue as to how to value the talents and contributions of the women within them. Women were just really starting to come in to the work force in significant numbers and just beginning to achieve any kind of a role of authority or influence. Uh, but the companies did not know what to do with them. And I, I felt like I heard some of the best ideas, even big strategic ideas. Um, when I was in the ladies’ lounge back in, back in that day though, the bathrooms all had these lounges.

Speaker 1: 02:42 And, uh, I kept thinking, you know, this, this needs to filter up. And it’s partly that we don’t really appreciate, the companies don’t know how to appreciate it. And at the same time, I was trying to prepare myself to be, to some degree successful by leading a lot of the books that were being published then. I know a lot of books about, you know, women being successful, but all of them, every single one o f them emphasized what women, um, none of them saw that women could make a real contribution. It was just sort of, don’t do this, don’t do that. And women didn’t understand teamwork because we hadn’t played football, etc etc. Um, and I thought, well, you know, we’re really getting bad advice. We’re getting advice that we have to completely adapt to what we find and nobody, and people don’t really know how to value our skills anyway.

Speaker 1: 03:35 So I decided to write a book, studying how the best women leaders do things. And that book, the female advantage, really became very successful, I think because it was the first book and it was the first book that looked at what women had to contribute rather than how they needed to change and adapt. And people started calling me for advice. It was nothing else like that out there inviting me to speak at their forums. And I thought, well, you know, this is more interesting than working in the corporate communications jobs, I have much more insecure but uh, I think I’m going to go with this. So that’s a, that’s almost 30 years ago. Excuse me.

Speaker 2: 04:15 Oh, Sally, we’re thrilled that you took that course because your, your advice, your insights I think are just incredible. So let’s start with you talk about some of the beliefs that, I’m sorry, I’m getting over a cold. Yeah, no problem. You talk about some of the beliefs that limit women and one of those in particular that resume with me was ambition is not a good thing. You want to speak about some of those beliefs that are behind the roadblocks and we try to change behavior. But you talk about we can’t change behavior until we know our beliefs.

Speaker 1: 04:57 That’s definitely true. Yeah, we can’t, we need to really analyze and, and in the new book how women rise, uh, which is about behaviors that are most likely to get in the way of successful women. What we seek to do, my coauthor Marshall Goldsmith and I is to identify what are the behaviors most likely to hold women back as they seek to rise to a higher level. Uh, and in doing that, that’s not, we’re not doing that because we’re, we’re saying that we use in women haven’t reached the highest level and a lot of cases is because of their own behavior. We recognize there are lots of structural and cultural issues and old boys’ network, but we wanted to really focus on what women could control. And that is your habits and behaviors and what, what could get in your way. And the more you dig down into that, the more you find that certain beliefs overarching beliefs are really a key to, uh, causing these behaviors.

Speaker 1: 06:03 Um, there’s a belief, as you say, that, you know, we can’t be too ambitious or that being ambitious is not a good thing. It’s not a good thing for us. It’s not a good thing for the world. And, and, um, and because we, and if we take that seriously, then what happens is if somebody in their own self interest often says, you know, well, you seem pretty ambitious, then we’ll back off like, oh, Lord, no, I’m ambitious. Please don’t think so. We, you know, we, we allow ourselves to some extent to be manipulated by our fear of being seen as ambitious. Another, um, another underlying belief is that I need to make everyone happy. And that’s, that’s part of my job here is to make sure everybody’s happy. Everybody feels great about themselves, etc etc. That’s a wonderful thing. But especially as you move to a higher level, it’s going to get in your way because the commitment to make sure everyone feels good.

Speaker 1: 07:11 You’re going to have a tough time holding people accountable. You’re going to have a tough time in enforcing your own boundaries. Um, because you’re, you’re so actively trying to please. So that’s another belief system, sort of an automatic assumption and belief that we make. And these are rooted in good, good things. So it’s not as if we want to try to become a different kind of person, but we want to recognize how these beliefs, uh, could get in, get in our way. And there’s one other fundamental belief that I think behaves, um, informs quite a few of the behaviors that we examined in the book. And that is a kind of either or approach. Either, I do things perfectly or I completely messed it up. Either, I, um, become obnoxious and constantly talking about how great I am and claiming my achievements or I just sit back quietly and hope that people notice what I contribute. Um, there’s a lot of sort of either or thinking, either I become a expert and a master in the work I’m doing and invest everything in my present job or I’m not really giving my all to my team and my, my organization. So, so I become more aware since the book came out, it became out last April and I’ve been doing tons of programs, workshops and, and leadership programs around it of how these underlying mindsets really, uh, do, uh, do shapes some of the behaviors.

Speaker 2: 08:56 You know, it’s so, it’s so powerful, and we don’t really think about what is the belief system that’s impacting the choices I’m making, right? Yes. And is that a false one or is that a, is it real? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 09:07 Feels real.

Speaker 2: 09:09 It does feel real. And part of it, it’s the way we’re brought up. And what’s interesting, Sally, as I read your book, is I have two children, a boy and a girl. Okay. Both in corporate lives and both approach their careers very different way. And I, after reading your book, I realized my son follows this mail from the day he begins a job. He lets them know where he’s going next. Exactly. As for my daughter, on the other hand, works very hard at pleasing so that she’s recognized and can move on. So let’s talk a little bit about what some of the roadblocks are.

Speaker 1: 09:46 Yeah. Well, one of the behaviors, you know, I, I again, I’ve been doing a lot of workshops and a lot of programs and one of the behaviors, it seems to get the most endorsement or were, you know, people are raising their hands and saying, oh boy, that’s me, is, uh, this twin almost twin behaviors of reluctance to claim your achievements. Um, you know, which is often inhibited because of feeling like, I don’t want people to think, you know, I’m, I’m this, I’m that, I’m ambitious, I don’t want to be all about me, etc. And then it’s twin, it’s evil twin, which is expecting others to spontaneously notice and value your contributions. Women seemed to really resonate with that. And that is, um, that is, you know, feeling that I don’t need to bring attention to what I’m doing. If I do a great job, people should notice.

Speaker 1: 10:45 Uh, the problem with that is that people often don’t, especially in today’s market, people are so busy and they’re not necessarily noticing what you’re contributing. And, you know, part of it is a reluctance. I mean, often when I ask women who say that they’re really bad at this, I said, well why? And I’ll, one thing I’ll often hear is, well, if I have to act like that, jerk down the hall to get noticed around here. No thank you. Well that’s the either or a framework you see, you know, either I’m the most obnoxious jerk in this organization or I just sit back and wait. The real problem with sitting back and waiting in addition to the fact that it’s often not very effective is that as you are not noticed and not recognized, you start to feel bad and you start to get discouraged and you start to, you start to really lose your feeling of engagement and commitment in the organization.

Speaker 1: 11:50 And that’s so problematical. Um, so you can end up thinking, and I hear women say this all the time, you know, well, my boss doesn’t have any idea of what I could, what I’m contributing. Um, I guess I don’t belong here. So it, it’s one of those factors that can be very discouraging for women. So it’s very important to address it. First of all, if you don’t get comfortable representing your achievements, if you, if you don’t find a way to do that, a way to talk about what you do, that doesn’t sound like you know that that works for you, then it’s not going to, it’s not going to position you well to move on. Um, and, and it is going to potentially negatively impact how you approach your job and how you feel about yourself. So almost a system you have to proactively plan for and then practice it so you do it.

Speaker 1: 12:52 So you hear yourself saying, you know, promoting yourself in a sense, but hear yourself, so you know how to reframe it, and reframe it so you’re comfortable that that’s really who you are and yet the message gets across. That’s correct. And a good way to do that. And I, again, I think one of the reasons a book is, is, is having, gaining a lot of attention and being successful is we don’t just diagnose these things. We also offer ways to address them in a good way to do that. So you feel like, you know, I don’t really see a way of doing this. Then you start asking people, you start enlisting people, you’re going into, you know, you said, you know, I really feel like I don’t get noticed or acknowledged. Just you can say to a colleague in that meeting, you’ll be in there with me.

Speaker 1: 13:44 Would you kind of watch and see is there a place you think that I could have spoke, could speak up? Um, I’m going to try speaking up and talking about something I achieved and, and, and being clear about that, could you see how you think it lands and have, you know, any thoughts you have that you could share with me would be helpful. Or you can go to somebody who you think is really good at that and say, you know, I noticed that you’re very, very, um, you seem very skilled at web. We sending what your achievements are. Uh, but in a way that that’s, you know, appropriate and likable and it doesn’t seem like all about, you know, like it’s all about me. Do you have any tips for me? Uh, in terms of, of how you frame that, um, that could help me be more comfortable finding a style to do that. And enlisting other people in your own self development like that is really, really powerful. It gives you support, it gives you visibility while you’re doing it, people begin to notice that you’re changing. And, uh, you know, again, these are, these are, you know, very powerful small actions and tweaks that you can make if you identify a, how some of these behaviors may be getting in your way.

Speaker 2: 15:02 So no, you have to be self aware, don’t you? You’ve got us to be able to see that that’s what you’re doing and then to be able to enlist that help. And so, um.

Speaker 1: 15:14 Well, you know, it’s an interesting thing that you say because the step awareness piece, it’s very hard to be aware of habits that are ingrained, which is why we advocate enlisting other people. We can be aware that something is getting in our way and I sort of over, uh, abstract sense, but when we’re in a situation where we’re, you know, we would benefit by practicing a different way of behaving, it’s really hard not to revert to old behavior. And that’s why it’s helpful to have to engage other people in the process. If you’re in a meeting and the way you usually present as a certain way and you’re trying to approach it differently, then having another person watching you is, is a little bit of a trigger and a reminder because otherwise we can just, with all the good intentions in the world default to what is familiar.

Speaker 2: 16:11 So true. My goodness. That’s so true. Let’s, let’s go ask, talk about one of the other roadblocks that you mentioned in your book. And one of the ones that resonated so much with me because I see it over and over and over again when I talk with women. And that’s ruminating. Yeah, just ruminating and ruminating over events or conversations or looks or nuts or lack thereof.

Speaker 1: 16:39 Yeah. That, uh, you know, it’s really interesting. There was a lot of rumination, a lot of study on rumination that was done at Yale, uh, some years ago. And, um, and the, the studies show that rumination and that is, you know, I mean, what is rumination mean? Woo. You think of ruminants, like how is a ruminant, you know, uh, a sheep is a ruminant. There, there are animals that chew and chew and chew and we chew their food in order to get it processed through their stomach. So it’s a really great word because it’s a great image. It means you’re constantly chewing something over rather than letting it go, letting it pass. And, um, and did they find that rumination researchers, fine rumination is much more common in women than men. You know, two people will leave a meeting and a guy will go out and say, well, that was fine.

Speaker 1: 17:35 I want to say, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t necessarily, you know, I, I felt like the way that we presented wasn’t, um, you know, wasn’t picked up on in the way that, you know, it should have been. And there were some people in the room who didn’t. We’re clearly not paying attention. And, uh, and, and I noticed so and so was very disengaged when we were presenting about so and so. So there are a couple of things going on here and then she’ll sit with that, do with that, you know, where they disinterested maybe, you know, you know, what, what do they think of? What do they think about our team? What did they think of me? Uh, they’ll, they’ll take that to heart and run with it. And a couple of things are going on there. And one is that I believe in, um, the female vision.

Speaker 1: 18:25 I was looking at why women don’t get more credit for being visionaries, a big picture thinkers, um, because what (Huge topic) I wrote a whole book on it, but, um, because research shows that, um, that senior executives tend to see women have as having many, many strengths, but to be skeptical about their, their, their capacity for vision of big picture, long term thinking. And I thought, well, why is that women in in my experience have had that a lot. Anyway, the, the the fundamental. So what we looked at was are there differences in men and how men and women see things? And the answer is yes. And it starts with notice. You think of vision. There are three parts to it. There’s what you notice, what you value about what you notice and then how you tell a story about why it’s important and but, but it starts with what you notice.

Speaker 1: 19:24 And you can see that by that example I just gave, women are noticing a lot of things that are going on at once and men tend to have a much more laser like focus and well now we made the presentation and the numbers added up and that’s the story. Whereas women will go into the womb and they’re noticing everybody’s response. Well that’s a great gift. That’s, that’s very powerful. Having that very active kind of radar where you reading a lot of information in the room is a great gift. However, it has a shadow side and the shadow side is you can get caught on overreading and over responding to all the reactions that you see and if you pick up on reactions that you feel are potentially negative, that can serve so your radar can really an undisciplined radar can serve rumination. And the problem with rumination is you, you just keep going over and over things and people who ruminate tend to believe that by going over and over and over things, it will make, give them more skills and more tools for solving the problems. But it really doesn’t. What it does is it tends to paralyze you and to make you feel bad and actually can lead to depression.

Speaker 1: 20:47 I

Speaker 2: 20:48 I found that fascinating. You know, one of the pieces of research that triggered with me when I read that in your book comes out of Gallup and they’re talking about right now where 80% of the workforce are feeling overwhelmed and stressed and 21% of the corporations in America today are saying that it has fit critical levels and they don’t know what to do with that. Or if you don’t have systems in place to do with that. And part of that comes from just exactly what you’re talking about because if you have all this out there that you’re trying to solve and you don’t know when to shut it off your grain and move into overwhelm pretty fast and depression because those two things were tied with them as well and their research.

Speaker 1: 21:34 You know, it’s really interesting in the female vision, one of the other things we found, and it’s partly because of this radar, is that with their, there’s some differences in men and women in terms of motivation and stress. Men require more support to get motivated. But once, you know, so they have a, uh, a lower start point, but once a motivated they can, they can stay with it. Women require much less a mode, you know, much less outside support you get motivated, they tend to get enthusiastic right from the get go. But this sets their activity point higher so they’re more likely to tip into stress earlier. And what is fascinating to me and I I think, uh, kind of of a result of our industrial heritage, uh, where our organizations were basically built for men is that organizations spend a lot of time and resources unmotivating people and very few with helping them deal with stress. And, and I think that research such as you quote from Gallup, which is having a big impact on organizations really will begin to, um, to shift that, that balance so that organizations recognize dealing with stress is something that’s key for both utilizing the workforce in the best way.

Speaker 2: 23:06 Sally, I want to move on cause I don’t want to leave our audience without talking about things that they can do. So, but can they do one of the stories that you talked about in your book that just fascinated me and I even use it for my own self and I’m going to teach it to everybody I can, cause I think it’s so brilliant, is your elevator pitch.

Speaker 1: 23:29 Yeah. Well and this has to do with the, the earlier behaviors we talked about in terms of claiming your achievements in terms of not expecting others. Just spontaneously notice and value what you do and a couple other behaviors in in book that the, such as putting your job before your career rather than thinking of your whole career and how every job fits into it. Just trying to focus on the job. Um, what really helps with all of those things is to have as much clarity as possible about what you are trying to achieve in your job, the job you have right now, what you are trying to achieve in your career overall, what is important to you to achieve. And you can do it either focusing on the job you have now. You can do it in terms of your larger career, but having a very, very clear purpose as to what you’re trying to achieve.

Speaker 1: 24:37 And then articulating that at every opportunity so that people know where you stand and they know how to measure what you’re trying, what you know, your level of success is really, really important. So when I do workshops I’ve developed, and I really got this from, I was doing the program at the World Bank and the chief sponsor for the women’s initiatives who was a gentleman from China was there, he’s a really interesting guy. And he was saying that in his experience what he noticed was that when, um, he was at headquarters in New York or, or I guess they’re in Geneva, uh, that when, when young, when younger women were asked, you know, well, what do you do? They would repeat their job title when younger men were asked and this is by somebody in we’ll authority, you know, what do you do? Um, I, you know, I contribute to creating a telephone, a telecom platform in developing markets.

Speaker 1: 25:45 And my hope is to do that in Africa and Asia because I have x, Y, and z connection. So they’d be very, very clear about what their purpose was and doing their job rather than just repeating their job title. And this man, I think his name was Dong soon was saying that it was something he thought was really important for women to just develop that ease and facility with whenever you’re asked, particularly by someone in authority, uh, when you, you know, we call it an elevator thing because it being, you find yourself in an elevator with the CEO or somebody on the executive committee of, of your organization a or a potential customer or client, if you are an entrepreneur and a small company that you have something to say about what you are doing that also encompasses why you’re doing it and what you want as the outcome.

Speaker 1: 26:43 So you very, very clear in that. And um, and I, I thought it was just a great suggestion and he said it’s simply a matter of preparation. You really think through what is it, you know, what, how does this job, you know, in, in marketing at this, um, you know, television station or communications company, how does this fit into my larger scheme of what I want to contribute and where I want this to take me? And then you really are our work on articulating that. So you ready and people know what you’re trying to do. Where are you trying to go? Um, and it, you know, he say he’s seen it work wonders. He said he was, he saw a young man got in the elevator with the CEO at the World Bank. He rattled off what he wanted and the CEO said, call this number. You know, I’ve got an opportunity for you because he knew and he said he’d just gotten in and, and the CEO had said, what are you doing? He said, well, I’m a, you know, a junior VP of whatever it, nothing would have happened. There’s nothing you can do with that information. So in my workshops, I’ve worked very hard with women to develop a kind of, you know, we can call it an elevator speech, uh, mission statement, uh, something that really expresses where they want to go. And guess what, it’s part of the reason this is so powerful is it’s helpful to think this through yourself. You really need to do this for yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:19 It gets rid of the clutter, doesn’t it? And I looked at, you know, you offer up in, in your book, but your elevator speeches and Marshall’s elevator speech, which is so simple, so clear. I help successful executives become more successful and change lives. I mean, it’s a little bit of a truncation on my part, but that’s basically, yeah, but he, he does and he, its so easy to understand that, right. It’s easy to understand that-

Speaker 1: 28:49 My mission, and it’s been the same for 30 years, is I help women to recognize, articulate and act on their greatest strengths. That’s my mission. That’s it. So once you have that, and then it also gives you something that you can make decisions about, what opportunities would be useful to accept because you know where you’re going. So it’s really clarifying and helpful and you want to be as concise and clear as possible,

Speaker 2: 29:21 You know, Sally? Its one of the things that struck me as you said that is, you know, you’d like it, all of the 12 roadblocks and part of those 12 roadblocks really also underlying all of it is not knowing who you are, what your skill set is. So, and comfortable with it. Owning it. Yeah. So you can express it, because, um, I know for me for a long time it was, I had a vision of what success was and I kept trying to be what that was rather than owning what my own real success and strengths were.

Speaker 1: 29:53 Yeah. It takes, you know, in my experience, women get there and they get there in a very powerful way, but it takes a longer time. It takes a much longer time. You traditionally, and part of my goal in life is to shorten that process for women. Okay.

Speaker 2: 30:13 That is so wonderful. Sally, you are on marvelous, marvelous, um, person, an inspiration to all of us. I just thank you so much. Before we go though, I want you to conclude with one of the things that you write about in your book and is so important with Marshall Goldsmith who is probably one of the foremost, uh, coaches in the world, um, executive coaches and he talks about saying, thank you. You want to say something about that? Yeah. That’s really, yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:46 Interesting. And it works very well in the context of our book, what we have a, a model for engaging other people in your development. And you know, I talked a little bit about it earlier. You know, I’m going into this meeting, I’ve had a problem with, you know, say being concise, (excuse me), I’ve had a problem with paying concise, would you listen and, and give me your thoughts and give me your opinions afterwards. And um, it would be really helpful. So we’ve got, um, a model for doing that. And the last step in it is whatever anybody says, whether it’s helpful or whether it’s not, just say thank you, don’t say, well I don’t think that would work for me or I’m not quite comfortable doing that because, or whatever you have asked someone for advice they have given you advice and your role is to say thank you and not to comment on it.

Speaker 1: 31:49 This is one of Marshall’s big things. He is, as you point out, I mean, he’s been right for the last nine years. Uh, the number one executive coach in the world. He finds his people when they don’t say thank you, he makes them pay him and then he gives it to charity. Um, when they don’t say thank you enough. And you know, this is one of the great things Marshall is very big on, saying thank you, but this is one of the things that women tend to be more proactive about and more comfortable with a and is more of an ingrained behavior, uh, than certainly a lot of senior male executives who, who sometimes have problems saying, thank you. It indicates a vulnerability. Most of us are comfortable saying thank you. So we really need to realize the benefits of spreading that, expression of gratitude, especially when we’re asking people to be engaged in our own development and, uh, helping us to, uh, to adapt behaviors that are more effective and service better.

Speaker 1: 32:57 Sally, our time is almost over. I’m very sad for that, any comment or bits of wisdom you would like to pass on before we finish. Yeah. You know, um, the rumination piece you brought up? Um, I want to say I, uh, I think that one of the reasons I was able to write this book, uh, partly is that many of these behaviors were really clear to me from the workshops that I’ve been giving for at least the last 10 years on finding what your vision was. But also because I exemplify a lot of the behaviors and rumination has certainly been one a, so I’ll finish with just a, a little quick story that’s got a resolution of a to do action. Uh, Marshall and I were working and, uh, at his apartment on the book and talking it through and he got a message from his home office and he picked it did up, you know, where we don’t talk on the phone when we’re working together, picked it up.

Speaker 1: 33:58 And he said, I heard him and he was saying, Oh yeah, I was supposed to call him at 2, a doctor, Kim. Uh, okay. Um, well I’ll, I’ll have to call him back. And then he’s, and he put the phone down and he said, oh well, and I thought, you know, I knew who Dr. Kim was and he was a CEO of one of the world’s largest corporate and most important, um, uh, corporate entities. And I was just so struck by him saying, oh well, and then moving on. And I was thinking, wow, you know, cause I was very in the book, so I was thinking I would have beaten myself up for six weeks if I had forgotten to call a call like that. I, it really would have been very painful to me. And it just struck me, his reaction. So when I went home, I sat down at my computer and I printed out in the largest font possible, a huge sign that says, oh, well, and when ever I get tempted to sort of go down the rabbit hole of self regret because I’ve made a mistake because I’m a human being and I’m not perfect, that banner is really, really helpful to me.

Speaker 1: 35:11 I could show it to you if I were in my office, but I’m in my husband’s office because our house is being cleaned today. Um, but it, it had hangs very proudly on my office wall just saying, oh well, and I am reminded, let go. I’m not perfect. I’m not aspiring to be perfect. I am aspiring to give the greatest contribution I can in the way that I’ve identified is important for me and perfectionism and that desire to be perfect, perfect is not going to serve that.

Speaker 2: 35:48 You know, that’s such a great lesson for all of us. We get caught up on so much. Don’t we? Your perfectionist certainly of professional women I think in particular, um, very difficult once you give up. I think it is for um, certain professions as well, whether you’re male or female, but there are jobs require perfectionism in a sense. All right. Thank you so much. Those of you who are on this Webinar, I just want to let you know, if we have your email, we will be sending you Sally’s Eboo, “How women rise”. It’s my gift to all of you. Just enjoy that, we could share this with you. So, uh, know that it’s coming. If we don’t have your email, make sure that we have it so we can get that to you. And that’s for those of you who are present on this webinar today. Sally, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You are just so wonderful. Have a wonderful day. Thank you. You too.

Speaker 1: 36:51 Thanks. All right. What time is it?