– Welcome, everybody, to today’s “Building My Legacy” podcast. I have with me today, Dr. Carolyn Iscovitz. She is a marriage and family counselor. She has her PhD in psychology and marriage counseling, and has spent a fair amount of time working with people in this area. And I think that as we look at legacy, I think one of the important things is what happens to our relationships? And sometimes we get so busy, don’t we, Carolyn, that as we move we forget we’re going to take these relationships with us. They have impact if we don’t. So if you would just speak a little bit about what you do, what got you into marriage and family counseling, and then we can talk about some of these issues relative to legacy building and how they impact legacy.

– Yes, absolutely. And so my journey in psychology, I love psychology and now being a coach, too, and working on those relationships with my clientele, my women entrepreneurs, but the biggest thing that I saw in the field of psychology when working with couples and families and just the individual as well, was how important it is that our relationships really, fostering our relationships and being able to understand that deep level too, because I think when you think about it and you break it down, we all have our own thoughts, our behaviors, and our actions, and how that counteracts with another individual is really imperative, be able to see that, from a wider scope. And going to a therapist is a great opportunity to explore that. And with coaching too, I’ve been able to really dive in a little bit deeper and move forward in that way and having that purpose in life and the purpose of our relationships too, and how that we foster those.

– So Carolyn, as you look at couples, families, but let’s stick with couples right now, ’cause it’s easier to break them apart and take them in their pieces As you’re looking at couples and work with them, and people are in their career, they’re thrusting towards their goals, which we all have to. We have corporate demands if we’re in a corporate life. If we’re entrepreneurs, we’ve got to survive, and build, and grow otherwise we lose things. What do you see are the biggest challenges that are brought to bear on couples?

– Yes. I think there’s a lot of different things that happen for couples, but the common things I’ve have seen when I’m working with my women is that this sense of purpose too, because they’re building their business or they’re now retiring. It depends on where they’re at in life, but I think it’s leaving something behind, being able to really have something of their own, because I think a lot of women struggle with sometimes the husband or the spouse was the breadwinner and now more women are becoming the breadwinners and have been for years now. But I think it really, there’s some times this level of like power in a couple and being able to be equals. I think that’s something that I’ve seen a lot recently especially more in the millennial ages, but more in like 40 and up I’ve been seeing that too with some of my clientele, but when it comes to the relationships I think the other thing is communication. A lot of things get translated and they’re upset or frustrated and don’t really know how to communicate that very clearly. And that seems to be an issue because everyone communicates, but it’s how do you communicate. And the next one I would say is boundaries because a lot of individuals have a hard time setting boundaries and really following through with those boundaries, especially in couples, I’ve seen that.

– I want to get back to the first thing that you said and that is looking at equality in their relationship. You want to speak more to that? You’re talking about that being particularly of concern with the millennials, and then 30, 40, but talk a little bit about that. What does that really mean?

– Yeah. And that’s a great question. I want to dive into that. And I think with equality, there’s more people that are wanting to have their own careers and more women have been going to school or starting their own business and I don’t know the exact statistics but there are so many more women now starting their own business from home, especially with COVID, that like kind of expanded that a little bit more, but I think the equality piece is just knowing that we’re equal, men and women. We all are human beings at the end of the day. I’m a firm believer in that and it’s what we bring to the table and bring to those relationships. But a lot of times, sometimes clients I’ve worked with, there’s lack of self confidence or they don’t want to overstep their spouse or their significant other and there feels like there’s this differentiation of the clientele where the woman wants to just be herself unapologetically and it’s not always supported or the spouse in my cases that I’ve seen they’re not always supportive or they are supportive but once the female starts to get more success then there’s this draw back and there creates tension.

– So is there a process you take people through that helps them deal with those issues, because those can be over whelming for both parties.

– Yes. Well, I think the biggest thing that I do with my coaching, I really go through the first element of work-life balance because sometimes there’s a balance, the person’s working too much and not having enough time for life. I’ve seen that time and time again. And through that process, we identify where the gaps are where there could be more time to spend with a spouse and that’s where maybe things level out a little bit. The next piece I would definitely say is self-love. How are they viewing themselves? How are they taking care of themselves from the inside out? And that reflects in our relationships because you have to make yourself happy before someone else can add to that happiness. I don’t think somebody can give you all the happiness in the world that you really truly need because it comes from within. I’m a firm believer in that. And then after self love, I moved more into the boundary piece because they have the power to set those boundaries. And then the final stage is really the emotional balance within the relationship so they can vocalize those really difficult emotions that we have as humans and just understanding them and navigating them. So that’s my process, I would say.

– Got it. So one of the things that I see as a look at the post-COVID situation is you’re absolutely right. We have a lot of people working at home and I think questions started coming to women’s minds particularly, and that is, “Wow, okay. I was working corporately. I’m now working at home because with lockdown, I was required to do that. And suddenly I can do this plus manage my children’s lives and I can have a marriage because I’m present, I’m not on the road all the time.” So that was one thing. The other I heard was, “Wow, I’m overwhelmed I am now doing everything, including being the school teacher, and I am asked to put forward skills that I don’t have and if I don’t want help my company increase and stay at least financially stable, I don’t have a job to go back to.” So there’s that underlying fear. So I have found both those stories going on in women’s heads today and then coming out of COVID what I’m seeing is people going, “Okay, now I have a choice. How am I going to choose this? And what do I want going forward?” So your advice, as people begin to look at some of those, how do you begin to address those issues?

– Yeah, no, that’s a fantastic question. And I think it’s something to really look at where every person has a different lifestyle and what I think the biggest thing is your priorities and your values and sticking to those. And those make those decisions a little bit easier, not completely not difficult, but you’re able to really prioritize your health and what’s important to you because I know my mom’s a teacher and she’s in her last year of teaching and she’s, doesn’t really want it, doesn’t know if she’s going to go back yet to the campus. And I mean, because she’s on the age of retirement and she wants to take care of her health, but also take care of her family and make sure she’s safe and everyone else around her. So I think there’s a lot of different elements to it, but I think at the end of the day, it’s deciding what’s best for you, what’s best for your family, and financially too there’s that stressor depending on the job. I think a lot of companies are now pivoting a lot to accommodate people working from home, but I think the stories you’ve said, I’ve heard those too and I’ve had clients on both ends of that as well and it’s really difficult for them. It’s just really identifying what is going to hold the most weight of going to be the healthiest and the most secure and financially, mentally, physically and emotionally for yourself, but also for your family. So I think it’s really just writing it down too and sometimes like visually seeing it can really help or talking out with somebody who you trust that could just give that space to hear you out and maybe have another suggestion because I think everybody’s taking different roads. It’s just over those two options. We do have those options, but it’s what’s best for you I think at the end of the day.

– You said something else that was interesting to me about communication and I think, whether it’s been COVID, or if we’re in a really demanding career, we put things on hold. I’ll deal with that with my significant other when. I’ll deal with that misunderstanding when. And it’s usually when I have time, when I’m not so stressed, when, you know, there’s a lot of things that go into that when, and at some point that when arrives and so how do you begin those conversations when you’ve put things off, put things off, and there’s maybe a lot of stuff underneath that there’s been a lid put on and so you can do it in a healthy way without destroying one another. Thoughts? Suggestions? How do you approach this?

– Yeah, that is a big one. I think it is very overwhelming. It’s been very overwhelming for everybody on so many different aspects and I think it’s not unraveling it all at once and I think that has happened for a lot of my clients, some of my friends, family members experienced it all, but what it comes down to is focusing on one step at a time because you’re not going to be able to really dive into everything that needs to be done or work through or faced at the same time. It’s baby steps. It’s almost sometimes there’s been like big blow ups and then, okay, you’re scrambling to fix it because now you can’t leave your house and you have to deal with it. So I think people have been really challenged but I think there’s so much resilience from people that are coming in from the forefront of what they’ve been able to adapt to and people are stronger than they think, or mentally physically dealing with situations that they might have not really had the time to face because they’ve always been on the go and now they’re in for like a house or wherever they’re living and having to really face these issues, but I think it’s really identifying them and when it does get overwhelming I always suggest journaling to, like, get it out first and foremost to paper because it gets out of your head and you’re not having all those thoughts ruminating in your mind. That has been really beneficial for myself, but also for my coaching clients as well. But I think the biggest thing is writing it down, having those conversations, and one big thing that I focus on with communication is active listening. I used to do it with my therapy clients and now I do it with my coaching clients is respond When I think a lot of times when we’re talking, we’re waiting to respond versus, like, actively listening, of understanding, and that’s where, especially with couples, it’s a big one where to be able to identify what they’re really saying, but then responding from what they’re saying, that makes sense to you. So having that dialogue is big.

– Could you give an example of active listening? What would that look like?

– Yeah. Great. So one thing would be just, let’s say some, in a couple for instance, the husband is upset about something and the wife asks him to take out the trash. So she’s like, “Can you take out the trash?” And he gets upset. He’s like, “You’re always on me about taking out the trash. What is this?” And like, he storms out. He’s not even listening to her because she wants her to take out the trash, but there was a deeper meaning to that. The conversation wasn’t, if you preface it, there was a whole conversation before there was argument and being able to be, he was upset, and then she’s asking me to take out the trash and what he felt was being neglected and he felt like he was being taken advantage of because she wasn’t really giving him that space to talk. So that’s not really the best example. I can give you another one too. But I think the moral of the story too is when you’re constantly nagging, it’s not nagging. It’s just things that need to be done. Or when people are upset and the fight gets blown out of proportion, there’s really something deeper. It’s not about the trash. It’s about, “Okay, well you weren’t hearing me out earlier. Now I’m upset with you,” versus really diving to understand what’s going on in that situation

– ‘Cause usually we’re reacting to something when that’s happening and may be more than just the trash, right? There may be other issues that are deeper. I think one of the things that I’ve observed is communication often is one of those things that gets put on hold because we get so busy and figuring out when and how to begin those conversations also becomes difficult. We keep putting it off because it’s scary and then we put it off because it still is scary and someday we have to meet what we’re afraid of. And so one of the things I liked about what you said was journaling because you get the heat of the emotion down so that when you begin your discussion, you’re not in the heat of it, perhaps. Speak a little bit more about that.

– Yeah. I think when we’re upset, our emotions get the best of us sometimes where we react without even thinking of what we’re doing. It’s just that initial reaction. We go kind of to the foundational piece if we haven’t worked through stuff or we haven’t been able to really express ourselves, but I loved what you said about the buildup because I think a lot of people, especially more of the people pleaser, or maybe on the passive-aggressive side, but they’re not always saying what they need to say in that moment. It builds up. And I’ve seen this a lot because that’s how I used to be, to be quite honest. And a lot of my clients that I see now, I’ve seen that time and time again. But I think it’s because you don’t want to offend someone or you don’t want to hurt their feelings. So it becomes this buildup of just saying, “Like, hey, that really bothered me when you did this.” If you had just done that the first time, instead of like the seven time, it’s built up this resentment. So in order to journal, you’re able to release it. One thing I’ve actually practiced with my clients is to write a letter to either the person and not having to send it, but just to get out that frustration first and foremost, or even to the feeling, like what the feeling means to you. What is anger? Why are you angry? What’s upset? And by journaling, a lot of times things come out that they weren’t even thinking of because their thoughts are allowed to be released. And I think the biggest thing is understanding that our feelings are valid and we’re going to have feelings and I think sometimes there’s such a negative connotation to certain emotions when there really isn’t, like at the end of the day, you feel what you feel. It’s acknowledging it, but then it’s facing it. And it’s scary, like you were saying, to face it but I think that’s the most important part in order to move forward and address the situation, and acknowledge it so you can build upon that and that also creates this vulnerability and Brene Brown, she’s one of my favorite authors, could quote her day and night. She talks a lot about shame and guilt. And I think a lot of times anger or other emotions top onto that and there’s shame maybe of saying something and that’s causes a buildup as well or just not being able to vocalize it. So through journaling, I’ve seen so many of my clients excel by doing that and really seeing the benefit because a lot of people resist me when I’m like, “You need a journal, let’s try journaling. Just try it. You might like it. You might not.” But I think that’s the most important part because it just gets it out of your mindset because we have so many thoughts on a daily basis. It’s just constantly going. So I think that’s important to just write it out so you have that space.

– I think I find too, if I write things down I’m surprised that what I thought was my emotion isn’t really the emotion. There’s something else that was bigger that was behind it and it may have nothing to do with the person that I have the emotion toward at the moment. But it’s a learning. It’s a process that, as you go through it, you kind of have that, “Ah-ha!”

– Yes, no, absolutely. I think that’s the most important part because that’s part of the writing too. When they’re writing it out, thoughts just start coming and they don’t even realize that that’s still bothering them or it’s still lingering, but being able to see it visually or just pen to paper, for some reason, it just works. It works.

– So for people who are in business and they’re working with the business, they’ve got the pressure, the stresses of business, and I think right now today, there are more pressures than ever because we don’t know what’s going to happen with the economy. We don’t know if there’s going to be money available to people. One of my neighbors is, owns his own business, and he said, “The problem is, is my supply chain isn’t all working up and working yet, so although I can be fully-functioning, some of my customers aren’t ready. Some of the people who supply me aren’t back up and running.” So there’s a lot of pieces that go into this that are, we haven’t had to think about in the past. Right? And then with that, you have also this added piece of relationships. So as you look at both, you work with people in business, you look at people who are trying to build and grow things, how do you help them weigh this and move through that struggle, that balance between making both work?

– Yeah, no, and it’s really tough right now. And I think that’s, the uncertainty is what’s so overwhelming for so many of us in so many different facets. And when you’re looking at your business, you’re looking at your relationships, it’s focusing on what’s in your control. What can you do to pivot? What can you do to make it work in this moment? And that’s all you can do. You have… A lot of entrepreneurs too, I think, in business, we’re always innovative. We’re always thinking of the next thing. And it’s just maneuvering that. I actually listened to a podcast not too long ago, it’s called “How I Built This” and it’s about all different entrepreneurs and what they were talking about with the founder of Airbnb, how they pivoted their entire business model and they thought they were going to go under when COVID started, but they were able to see that the first responders, they needed homes and since all these cancellations happened they were able to house these first responders and then all of a sudden people started to take a month off because they could work from anywhere and rent out a house that was clean and ready to go and they started making their money that way and smaller towns started getting more business than they ever have and just this entire thing shifted for Airbnb and that was all about pivoting and being able to pivot and be creative in this moment because we can only do what’s in our control. We have to accept that, hey, this is what it is today, but what can I do to move forward? What am I grateful for? That’s been a huge topic every session for my clients and focusing on the positives, because that’s going to keep you going and focusing on, okay, let’s get to the next day. Something might change. We don’t know. But in that uncertainty, all we can do is focus on what we do have in this moment, especially our relationships because our health and our relationships, I feel like that’s a foundational piece of life because that’s what fills us up, that’s what connects us and makes us human and our business is our business, but we have to really balance that out and figure out what’s going to really help us get to the next day when we are in that mindset of overwhelm.

– I love your example of Airbnb because you’re right. You’re absolutely right. They were in the struggle of their life for their business and they pivoted. And I think one of the things that we don’t talk about in relationships is, how do we pivot? We tend to often think things just kind of progress in a linear sort of fashion, but sometimes life brings us events that cause us to need to pivot. So how do we do that as humans at the relationship level?

– Yeah. I think it’s different for every type of relationship, whether it’s a romantic, whether it’s with our friends or family. I’ve seen a lot of these changes personally and that just kinda gives me more of a foundation for when I’m working with my clients is I’m able to see it in a different light too. But I think the biggest thing is, especially you’ll see this when someone’s growing and someone’s not, and there’s a pivot in that. Somebody’s like focused on all these conferences and education and personal development and the other person’s kind of stagnant. That shifts the relationship and it’s sometimes you just have to accept, okay, well when they’re ready, they will. Maybe they’ll never be ready but that’s a decision you have to make at that time and understanding that you guys are different when it comes to friendships. And I think especially like boundaries, one thing that I learned a lot of was boundaries a few years back and being able to set them effectively because I think part of me was always saying yes and always wanting to please everybody and do everything for everyone and be there and I realized I can’t. And when I started setting those boundaries, with friends in particular, I saw the shift. I saw that they were shifting to my new energy and I think that’s important in any relationship. When you are shifting you have to give the other person time to shift too if they’re meaningful in your circle, in your life because they’re used to the old you and now they have to adjust the new you and giving them that time. And I think in romantic relationships I’ve seen this as well, where you’re shifting, you’re setting more boundaries, or you’re changing or evolving and I think it’s just being able to evolve together. You might be going the same. You’re parallel. You’re both growing in whatever the other person is doing, but I think it’s also acknowledging that you are different human beings, and what was the core of your relationship? What are those values of that relationship? And I always go back to that because I think it’s so important and that’s how I live my life and that’s what I teach too, because I think that is foundational to understanding our relationships and the communication piece and just changing.

– Core values are huge, aren’t they? And there’s a reason why we talk about them. There’s a reason why they go into our mission statement. It is also a reason why so many times we struggle and why we get criticized because people look at that and they go, “But you say this and you do this,” and we’re challenged to come back to what those might be. I am… This has been really fascinating. We’re soon going to run out of time, and before we do I just want to ask you things that are really important for you that you have seen, that you’ve learned from working with people that you would like to share before we have to sign out.

– Yes. Thank you. I believe the most important thing that I want to share is just remembering to love yourself. And what does that look like? It looks different for everyone, but really giving your time, yourself that time for you and scheduling it in with everything going on right now. It’s really important. Just take time for yourself, whether it’s just five minutes, and if you have young children and they’re always coming to the bathroom with you, shut the door for a few minutes, or if it’s just you need that time to read a book and have a cup of tea, or just being able to unload for a little bit and giving yourself that space. I do something daily. So it could be anywhere for five minutes to an hour, two hours, but I always make sure I give myself that time and that’s what I always tell my clients as well. It’s really important for your overall wellbeing. That’s the first thing. And then to remember to set boundaries. It’s okay. You’re not being rude or mean. It’s just very important and that’s what’s going to elevate yourself and just being happier, too. It just levels out overall. And the other thing is your feelings are valid and you matter, and you’re enough, and that’s the most important thing.

– And you’re enough. You know, we get caught up in how much more can we do and when we’re caught up in that, we put that same demand on everybody around us and our families and our relationships at home as well, don’t we?

– We do.

– Carolyn this has been really a wonderful discussion. Thank you so much for all your insights and your experience with both business as well as with your marriage and family counseling. So thank you for your time. And for those of you who are listening to our podcast today, “Building My Legacy,” thank you for being with us. Thank you, Carolyn.

– Thank you so much for this opportunity. I appreciate it.