– Welcome everybody to today’s building my legacy podcast I have with me today. Pasquele Pasquele I did better Mazzuca and absolutely amazing in terms of what he’s done. So lemme give you some of his background, because I think it’s important always to put a person’s thoughts into the context of their experience. He’s an executive leadership coach and consultant. He has been partner with Heidrick & Struggles in their leadership consulting practice. He co-founded and grew Hamilton Devonport partners, a leadership consulting boutique. He has human resource experience. He’s directed human resources. He has worked with AT Kearney management consultants. He’s an associate professor at Kenan-Flagler business school at the university of North Carolina. I’m sorry for that mispronunciation there. For those of you who are North Carolina people he holds a lot of different degrees. He has worked with companies all over the world. He has worked with companies in the UK. That’s where he’s located at the moment. And he has worked in Belgium, in Italy, in France, Bulgaria. So here’s some of the companies, Alstom grid, Cone international bat BAT Moby Tel Bulgaria, Stanley and Decker Johnson and Johnson Euro control management center Europe, and the list goes on. So with that, I just want you to know we’ve got an expert here and before we get really started with our discussion anything I left out that is really important for our audience to know about you.

– Thank you so much, Lois for inviting me. I really do appreciate that. And I’m really excited to be here. You’ve covered a lot of background there. That’s just great. Just one story I’d like to share with you as an introduction. Many years ago when I was working in the corporate world, I attended quite a few board meetings and executive level meetings. And I remember at all these meetings, we used to have introductions and everybody kind of used to introduce themselves like I’m, managing director of this and managing director that when it came time to the CEO, that was there in the company he always introduced himself as the CTO and the CTO. And it’s not what you think it is. And when you asked him, well, what the CTO mean? Because he was the CEO. He said, no I’m CTO. And he said I’m the chief trouble officer always causing trouble by representing a different way of thinking a different mindset shaking the tree a little bit. And that’s kind of been a little bit my philosophy over the years is to kind of get people in coaching sessions that I have to hold back. And hey, think about things in a little bit more detail and ask those probing questions and get people to think about things perhaps in a different way. So anyway, that was just a little bit of something to add onto the introduction.

– You know, it’s interesting because chief trouble officer in many ways is what the companies are experiencing right now, isn’t it? And you can look at that as a positive and it also has that negative little twist to it. But one of the things that we talked about before we started the podcast Pasquale is that the world that we’ve begun to create is one that nobody seems to be happy living in or working in. So talk a little bit about that, what you’ve observed with that and then let’s talk a little bit about what does that mean for CEOs and leaders?

– Yes great and we have actually created this world that nobody wants. And the evidence of that is for instance, if you look at employee engagement studies show that the employee engagement is decreasing and has decreased. And so almost two thirds of people on the job, people working today are disengaged from the activities that they’re doing. And so there is a lot of organizations today there is a detachment that’s occurring people and their management and their leaders. In fact and one, I did a little exercise recently where I typed into Google in the search engine my manager is, and I Googled completed it. And the first answer that Google popped up, which was, I guess the one that was the most searched after is my manager is bullying me. Not very, very, very good to hear that. And then the list goes on. My manager is harassing me. My manager is bullying me and so on and so on. And so there’s a big disconnect that is occurring today in organizations and this is all around a culture that we created over the years. And this culture is where there’s a focus on results, a laser sharp focus on results which of course you need to because companies are there to make a profit. However, that’s the trade off of that is that there’s less focus being paid on the individual, the person that’s doing the work the human being at the end of the day. And it’s that human being that needs a great deal more attention than, than has been given in the past. And companies are slowly beginning to wake up to this and creating a kind of a culture that’s more focused on wellbeing, more focused on increasing employee engagement in organizations today. It’s not there yet. The first step is that people are recognizing it and they’re recognizing the importance of what’s known as human capital as opposed to financial capital right? And so that’ll change more and more in the future. As people begin to realize that the biggest differentiating factor in companies today, the ones that are successful and the ones that are not successful is how people can have the leaders can manage the human capital lead the human capital in the organization. And so there’s a lot of work that’s being done in that area, still not there yet. And I’ve been observing this with a lot of interactions that I’ve had with my clients and some organizations, just to give you an example I work with a technology startup and the company has grown from three people. It’s founders to whether over 50 people today. And they’re bringing a new product into the marketplace, which is really revolutionary. And they’re pushing the boundaries of what that technology is gonna be able to do. at the same time that technology has very demanding timelines and people are working crazy hours. And it’s really incredible. The amount of effort that people are putting in and leadership has recognized that and putting in a lot of effort in terms of organizing employee, focus groups organizing wellness moments in the company. So doing different things that are gonna help the human capital to be more engaged but also more productive.

– So one of the part of that, what you’re talking about that I’m also hearing is employees saying boy, I sold my soul to the company, the last company I was with. I’m never doing that again. ‘Cause in the end, they didn’t care. And I’m always worried about that because you go to the next position and you’re working at with a caution with a yellow light around you so that, you know, when to exit, you know, when to say this is my limit right. You’ve pushed me too far. And so I wanna talk a little bit about leaders. How do leaders know and create what needs to be put in place ’cause it’s a new kind of leadership that we’re gonna be needing.

– Exactly, exactly. And that’s a great point that you’ve made that Lois. And today what’s going on in leadership is that people are stepping back and taking stock. I’ve been following very closely, BP British Petroleum and British petroleum have made a public statement that they’re gonna be carbon neutral by 2030, 2030 that’s, 10 years time. And so for a big company, this is a reinvention of their DNA because BP British Petroleum is a company that is in the oil and gas business right? They supply or oil and gas upstream, downstream and all the different products that go around that. And so they’ve made a commitment to be carbon neutral. Why have they done that? Because the new CEO that’s come on board, who is somebody that’s been in the company for 30 or so years spent their career in company has seen the power of creating this new world that is different than the world that we had before. And so now that that strategy is in place. The company has been organized to create a culture around that and to drive that all the way down through all the different layers in the organization. And so this is really something that sets the example from the top sets the tone from the top. So the first thing that leaders need to do is to be the role model. It was, I think it was Gandhi that said, “Be the change you want to see in the world.” And so this is exactly it. So you have to demonstrate what you want to see as changed. So that’s the first thing. So being able to be the role model and walk the talk. And the second thing is to listen and not lose connection with all the different layers of an organization. And again, this example of BP, the CEO, he spends a lot of time actually on LinkedIn, believe it or not posting and it’s really funny because even when people that have got a job with the BP even an entry level job and they posted it on LinkedIn say Hey, I’ve been very, very I’m happy to join BP. He picks that up and he says, oh, welcome to the company. Can you imagine a CEO of a 100 thousand plus organization? That’s a global company sending you that message. Can you imagine what that does to? So I think the listening part is extreme. And the third thing that is incredibly important is empathy, empathy, and compassion right? So being able to see the world from the other person’s perspective the other person’s shoes and a lot of the time we get stuck in our own activities. And as leaders we wanna charge forward and and do a great job, and that’s fantastic at the same time we need to relate to the other people in the company. And the empathy part is the one that is very important.

– So part of what you’re saying is those are skills largely communication skills listening, empathy, compassion, acknowledging somebody for, there for just being present in the company, liking the company. Those are communication skills, they take time. And do you think that we’ve grown leaders now with the skills that they need to be able to fill that role or are we needing to look at our training programs and our onboarding of our executives in a different way so they can really implement those three aspects?

– That’s a great question. Thank you for asking that. And you’re absolutely right. So if you look at what’s highly demanded in terms of skills by executives, these days influencing without authority comes really high up on that list. So influencing without authority is really very, very important. If you want to progress as a leader, we’re not born with influencing skills right? Or we don’t acquire magically influencing skills. And so there’s a way to help us identify where we are with our own influencing and use different techniques to help us build our influencing repertoire and portfolio. So influencing is, important. And we mentioned earlier on listening, active listening, that’s also a skill that with practice, you become obviously more and more proficient in doing that.

– So how do we need to prepare our leaders differently? Is it our graduate school programs? Is it the role of the company to do the training who will who will provide this kind of training do you think?

– That’s a good question. Ultimately, the capabilities that people need to progress and make a career, those are capabilities that can be learned over time can be mastered. And so, first of all, it’s the individual’s responsibility to, first of all understand where they are in terms of their own strengths and liabilities. I mean, we all have assets and we all have liability. So they need to understand from that perspective, what are their assets and liability? So that’s the first thing. The second thing is what are the basic building blocks that you need to be able to progress? You mentioned communication. That’s one of them. Influencing that’s another one. Being able to handle adversity for instance, that’s also another. And so there are a number of building blocks that you can accumulate and put into practice. And it’s through experience that you gain the insights to be able to know whether this works or that works or how this works and how this doesn’t work. And leadership has always been situation it’s been contextual, right? And it’s a question of putting the skills that you have into the contextual elements that will give you the best results.

– So do you think that our experience with COVID is gonna accelerate this change the need to adapt to create an environment where people will be more happy and wanting to come to work?

– Somebody was telling me the other day that COVID has caused 10 worth of change in 90 days. When you see it’s a massive amount of change, massive we’re working differently right? So people that have been asked to work from home, who traditionally have been working from the office, they’ve been having to get used to a number of different things. First thing is the commute they’ve gained time. So people have gained time not spending going into commute. That’s the first, second thing is they’ve had the chance to spend more time with their families right? Because that they’re in the home environment were working out of the home office. And the third thing is it’s created this need for thinking about how can I become more effective in interacting with others. When now I can’t do it over a coffee machine. I can’t have go over to somebody’s desk. And if I’ve got an idea, I could quickly go over to their desk and share it with them. I can’t do that anymore. I have to be able to interact and relay to people differently. And as a leader managing a virtual team takes the different sets of skills or complimentary set of skills then managing people directly when you’re next to them or when they have their office further down from you. So that’s that’s a whole way of working that we didn’t think about really before and now some companies, for instance like Google are asking people to work from home full time. I mean, they’re just gonna get people to work not coming to the office. And just, so that means that as leaders, as managers, as contributors, as individuals we have to get into this mindset of working differently and being prepared to interact in a different way.

– I was speaking with the executive vice president for HubSpot, Christopher O’Donnell. And one of the comments that he made is that one of the challenges right now with our virtual or hybrid office system is that those little conversations you had in the hallway where you made an assessment about somebody asked a question and you entered your mind in terms of a promotion or movement in terms of project development or leading a project but you don’t have those conversations anymore. So his observation was in a sense it’s maybe made the ground more neutral in terms of gender and race, because email is the method of communication. So he saw some real positives in it, but I’m also hearing, especially from women who are working virtually an exhaustion because they’re also having to manage school often and then they’ve got the children around more often and they don’t have that ability to get out and connect with other they’re more contained and limited to their own home environment. So what are you finding in that area?

– You’re absolutely right. Just recently, I’ve got a great example of that. Just recently I was facilitating an executive leadership team meeting and it was the first time this team had come together since February of this year come together, physically since February. I mean, they’d had a lot of zoom calls and virtual calls whatever, and there business was progressing. Now we had, we spent a day together done in all kinds of sanitary conditions with social distancing and hand sanitizers and whatever. So that was that was done according to the way we should have done it. And it was really incredible because the CEO came to me at the end of the session, saying that he was absolutely amazed at how much progress the team had made compared to previous occasions where they’d had meetings virtually how much progress made in this session. In one eight hour session we spent very intensively together. We got at least three months work done.

– Wow.

– Advanced with the team. And so that was something that was very very satisfactory, obviously because of the situation with COVID right now, you can’t do that on a regular basis but from time to time, balancing the virtual with the face-to-face is a very productive way of doing it. If you have balance it all on one side, only the virtual, as you rightly say you miss those interactions, which advance and make and increase the productivity of project. And at the same time, if you do it all face-to-face then people need people take too much time out of their activities for it to be productive. So finding the balance between the two is really key.

– It is such a tough balance. And I think initially right at the outset of COVID the thing I used to see and hear the most was, oh thank goodness. We don’t have all those meetings anymore. So there was that relief initially. Now people are beginning to miss that interrelationship. So here’s another thing that I think is happening that I think I’m beginning to see a shift of the people. I don’t know how much conversation it is getting and that is I’m hearing HR directors saying if we’re working in a hybrid setting, I am no longer limited geographically. I don’t have to move somebody to the corporate headquarters. I can literally hire the best talent from anywhere in the world. So I think we may begin to see some shifting in terms of how we look at the people who we have within our company. We may be looking past geographic boundaries because we’re no longer limited by that. Your thoughts on that. Are you seeing that at all?

– Absolutely yes and we talk more and more about company is building a talent portfolio of people that they can bring in to execute parts the business project, whatever it is. And that portfolio of talent, especially in the digital world can be anywhere. It can be in India can be in China, can be in the U S can be in south America, can be anywhere. And so that geographic barrier, as you rightly say is now no longer a consideration. When you look at the virtual world having said that, I come back to what we said earlier on you still need the face-to-face connection from time to time, but real world connection. I always say you can’t be email handshake. That’s why you always need that face-to-face part in combination with.

– Yeah having spent a lot of time in Japan, it’s being able to read the person’s Hearts pace is so critical and hard to do that over zoom.

– Exactly exactly.

– So as we bring this to a close thoughts that we’ve missed things that we should have talked more fully what have we left out?

– So we spoke a lot about the leadership that we need to change today. The leadership paradigm has to shift because a lot of people are unhappy with the world that we’ve created. And this leadership paradigm shift starts with you starts with me, starts with the individual and that’s really where the mindset needs to adapt to the future world that we wanna create the future environment that we wanna be part of. And we really need to actively engage and have a voice in what we want that world to look like. Just like the example that I mentioned with the CEO of BP, that’s taken on this incredible challenge and that’s building a culture around obviously they’re an in profit for profit business. You need to show results to your shareholders. However, at the same time they’re building in a lot of compassion in what they do. And a lot of diversity in thought, a lot of diversity in input, a lot of diversity in voice that they bring. One example that I can share with you. I’ve been working many, many years with different leadership teams around the globe and time and time again. One of the things that I learned about the success of leadership teams is that most leadership teams that are highly successful are always very diverse teams diverse teams, in terms of gender culture, ethnicity. These teams, compared to teams that are all white all one one gender, or all one particular background they have more success in terms of results than the other teams. And I’ve actually seen this for myself firsthand. And so it actually pays to have a very diverse and inclusive organization and leadership that you’re gonna be putting place for the future.

– Before we leave. I think you have a very interesting perspective on your consulting and how you do consulting. And for those of you who are listening, we will have information in the show notes about how you can connect with Pasquele Pasquele so that you can–

– You’re getting there

– I’ll get there before we’re finished.

– Congratulations yeah.

– Yeah so you can connect with him. But one of the things that you talked about was bringing in a network of consultants of talent for specific purposes, because how do work within organizations have changed and how we do work as consultants is beginning to shift. So speak a little bit about that.

– Sure exactly and as I mentioned too earlier on I’d had first-time experience in that where depending on a client need and it always starts from a client needs. So the focus is on the client. So if a project is of a certain size where obviously I alone in what I do, I can bring in a network of experts to work on a particular project. And I know the expertise, I know the level and quality of delivery of people in the network and I can bring that network to help the client on a particular project. And so I’m also part of different expertise networks. And in that way, we share a lot of experience and best practice that is currently gonna be useful for the client and helping the client out in a particular project that they’re working on.

– I love that idea an expertise network. So creating one and having one that you can utilize as you need it. So it’s on an as needed basis, which is beautiful. Isn’t it?

– Exactly.

– Pasquele thank you so much for your time today, for your thoughts on leadership and how we really need to reshape our world. I really appreciate your thoughts and comments. And for those of you who are listening to us today on building my legacy podcast, thank you and be sure to look at the show notes for information.

– Thank you for having me, Lois. It’s been my pleasure and I look forward to keeping in touch.