Speaker 1: 00:00 Okay. Just so you know, Marine, how do we pronounce your last name? Cvetkovic? Yeah, that’s perfect. Okay. Yeah. So I am going to, what is your title and what is your company? Let’s start there.

New Speaker: 00:22 Okay. So I am, currently VP of Strategy and Chief of Staff to the CEO of Swiss RE, Swiss RE. It’s like Reinsurance RE. Okay. So s w i s s r e, correct? Yes, that’s right. And you’re the what? So VP, Vice President of Strategy and I also, I am also Chief of Staff to the CEO.

Speaker 2: 00:55 Okay, perfect.

New Speaker: 01:02 Okay. And now I don’t know if you want to, cause our topic is really more about boards and executive teams. So I am currently transitioning out of this role, so I don’t know if we want to position it as in like,

Speaker 1: 01:19 can I call you back in just a few minutes? Okay. I’m sorry. That’s my family trying to have everything organized for the funeral.

New Speaker: 01:32 So, no problem.

New Speaker: 01:34 Of course, but I did that based on our conversation. We can take this and move it in any direction that we, yeah. Like, yeah. So current. So you’re moving out of this position into what position?

Speaker 3: 01:50 Into like, so I, I mean I have my own company that is really Board consulting and Executive Coaching. And so my next stop will be doing that full time now, whether it’s just, I’m still exploring on the which modality, but I think for today we can talk about it as a, like I’m currently transitioning. Most recently I had this job because I didn’t want to talk about in my business background. But then really what I’m currently focusing on is really boards and working with women on boards but also just for the effectiveness in general and executive. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 02:26 Got It. Perfect. So Marina, with what you’ve observed, are there things that you’re particularly passionate about that you would like us to make sure to talk about and cover in this presentation.

New Speaker: 02:44 Yes, absolutely. So I think your questions are great. I definitely want to talk about the you have a question around what are the board’s like, what are the main challenges that boards are facing today? I want to talk about that. And in particular this aspect of being really future ready. cause it’s not necessarily a challenge that is oppressing point at the moment, but unless we do something about it I think will become a model, like an a challenge. So I want to talk a little bit about that, like the board, sort of the boardroom culture but also the board practices that may or may not be quiet. up to date with what is currently going on in the market and that is gonna set them up for success in the future. So that’s something that I definitely want to focus on. cause I am currently writing a book as well on the boardroom of the future.

Speaker 3: 03:43 So that’s very much a focus area of mine. And then, I would love to talk about, I guess, what we could cover a little bit is also, and I could, I could also build that into your questions, which are broad enough but more like the dynamic between the executive team and the board is also an interesting area. And you know, in my role as a chief of staff to the CEO, I was sort of at the intersection and so I want to talk a little bit about that dynamic and how to make the most out of your board. and then definitely we can talk about senior female leaders. what I’m a little bit less inclined to talk about maybe as an all about diversity, but I don’t like to focus too much on like all women lead differently or we’re lacking this or that and man dog, like I don’t like to focus on like, yeah, on that sort of like, sometimes there is a lot of like victim hood and that sort of like gender diversity push and, I really want it to be like more positive and empowering.

Speaker 3: 05:01 Right. So I’m going to talk a little bit about, you have a question around senior female leaders. And I want to say that senior female leaders, just like male leaders sometimes just to visit to think about their career beyond their current job. And, I think a board position could be something that is very relevant in the context of leading a legacy right with, because where the board position means is that you’re having an impact way beyond your current job pride and at the very high level that has a very high ripple effect in any organization. And so I’m going to talk a little bit about that. And I know you know, you what you love to focus on legacy. I believe your focus topic is very much around legacy. So what I want to also bring up is that, the nonprofit space and the board, the opportunity to serve on boards of nonprofits.

Speaker 3: 05:57 And you know, I am a board member of an organization called Governance Matters that basically helps build better boards, in nonprofit organizations and they own this online board matching platform that is completely for free, that is called Borden at USA. And I want us to sort of offer that it’s really not promotional, right? I mean I’m doing this, it’s my nonprofit work, but I think it could be a valuable resource to your audience as well to know where they can go if they’re thinking about potentially, cause a lot of us think about nonprofit work, but very few of us think about board service on nonprofits. And I think for your audience, that is a very relevant way of giving back and engaging, in nonprofits because not everyone can be on a board and offered that sort of business and strategic insight and all of that. So I want to talk about that as well.

New Speaker: 06:56 Okay, perfect. Yeah. So let’s go ahead and get started. Yes. Okay, wonderful. So let me introduce it.

New Speaker: 07:09 Hi everybody. This is Build your Legacy and I am with Marina Cvetkovic today. She is Vice President for Swiss re and is at the moment transitioning into her own consulting business, working with boards of directors and looking at How do you work executive groups with boards of directors because that has been her contribution of late, to the business world. So to get started, I’ll let Marina say hello to you and then we’ll get into our discussion for the day.

Speaker 3: 07:47 Hello everyone. It’s really great to be here. I’m excited about this opportunity to share my view of what legacy means in the business context.

Speaker 1: 07:58 So today we’re gonna talk about boards of directors and how you can work effectively with boards of directors. But it also is a way in which we can begin to look at how do we leave a legacy for our future. So Marina, you have worked a lot as a liaison in many ways between executive teams and boards of directors. So tell me a little bit about that role and why that has been so important.

Speaker 3: 08:27 Absolutely. So, you know, most recently I was a chief of staff to the CEO at Swiss three which is the largest reinsurance company in the world then and a chief of staff. part of our role is really, being the main gatekeeper between the executive team and the board of directors. And so as such, I’ve observed that dynamic quite a bit. as well as in my consulting business. And I think it is, it is a very critical intersection in any organization, because arguably, boards are very important team in any, leadership team in any organization. However, the executive team is the one that really implements the decision right then and is involved in the daily business and what I’ve observed as well as there, there are some ways that we can make that connection more effective in order to make sure we’re getting the best out of our boards.

Speaker 3: 09:20 You know, I think it is always such a shame. It’s a missed opportunity because our boards of generally like, group of extraordinary people, which is great. However, that is not a guarantee for a highly effective board, right? You need to have a right culture in place and the right processes and practices in place to make sure you’re really getting the value out of your board.

New Speaker: 09:46 So as you have worked with boards, what do you see are some of the biggest challenges that board face?

New Speaker: 09:53 Yeah, I’m so, I would say, definitely one of the most pressing ones at the moment as is the whole digital hype, right? So, most organizations if not all of them are thinking digital transformation if not like severely already involved, in a digital transformation. And so boards are really trying to catch up and think about what does that actually mean for our role and for the board oversight.

Speaker 3: 10:22 And so one of the ways that boards have dealt with it as by recruiting a member that is sort of like a digital board member and it’s certainly one way to go about it. However, I think increasingly in organizations as well as on boards, we are starting to realize that digital is needs to be a shared overarching responsibility of riot. And just like in organizations, I think we’re now moving away from like having a small sort of focus team that’s gonna take our organization to the next level. And we are understanding that actually everyone needs to be, aware at least of digital if not actively advocating and you know, contributing to digital transformation. The same applies to boards. boards are starting to realize that, perhaps one single expert is not a way to go about this.

Speaker 3: 11:16 Perhaps a better way to go about this is making sure that all board members have enough knowledge so that they can, you know, execute that sort of strategic oversight. And perhaps in addition to that, having one person who is really like a deep technical experts. so I would say that’s definitely one of the most pressing challenges currently, which has led to an interesting, interesting evolution and recently that we’re seeing more and more. you know, board members that are younger joining boards, right? So because boards, you know, need people from, you know, sort of taxes and startup space, well that space is typically a very young space. And so that has led to a different trend, which is more like, okay, having a more age diversity on boards because bringing on a digital board member typically means bringing a younger, you know, board members certainly younger than the current average, which is 60 plus, you know, in the US.

New Speaker: 12:19 So you talk a lot about, the future of the board part of that you see as a diversity in age, What are changes do you think are going to be occurring for the board of a future to be really effective yam?

Speaker 3: 12:37 So I think, it’s interesting cause in the sort of underlying organizations we’re seeing a lot of movement, right? There is definitely a strong push for agility and organizations are understanding that, you know, they need to adjust their processes and their culture in order to be able to keep up with the market. You know, and the pace of change in the market is as high as it has ever been and it’s most probably not gonna slow down. So there is like a massive disruption in many industries and companies are catching up. They’re realizing that, you know, rigid org structures do not work anymore. and you know, having a team of highly, highly sort of technical experts doesn’t necessarily work anymore because we need people to do this today and that tomorrow. Right. And we need people who are really quick learners and very a very agile, so I would say the same, you know, needs to be to a certain level of replicated on boards.

Speaker 3: 13:39 However, boards are a lagging behind a little bit, you know, they’re not necessarily, you know, as quick to adopt their practices. and processes which, you know, rightly so. Other constraints, right? I mean, boards are highly regulated bodies and there’s a lot of sort of legal and regulatory requirements that need to be honored. But I would say in order for boards to be fit for future day, really need to think about like what does agility mean in the boardroom? You know, what does that mean in terms of how we’re setting up our agenda? What does it mean in terms of the frequency of meetings? You know, our quarterly meetings really good enough anymore to keep up with the pace of change. Do we need to have touch points in between and if so, how does that work? You know, how are we exchanging information in a more agile way? You know, obviously there’s a whole, you know, cyber security that needs to be considered as well. You know, how we go about an information exchange, but, but I think there’s a lot that boards need to start thinking about to make sure they’re really continuing to be that strategic partner for the underlying organizations.

Speaker 1: 14:52 And just so our audience knows you’re in the process of writing a book on the subject and you anticipate it will be finished.

Speaker 3: 15:02 I’m hoping early fall,

Speaker 1: 15:05 Early fall. Everybody stay tuned because actually send out information when to our audience with her book released so people can know. Absolutely. So the board room is changing. Digital’s changing how we communicate is going to change. And you know, just like we talk now on zoom and other places like that. do you see those kinds of changes also coming into that interaction interface between boards and executive teams and how so?

Speaker 3: 15:43 I think it will inevitably have to happen. I would say we’re seeing a little bit of it already, but I think we will see it increasingly going forward because the way I see the future as we will need, increased frequency of touch points between the boards and executive teams just because of the pace of change. You know? And if you take into account how busy the board members are as well as the executive teams, well physical touch points just won’t be possible anymore, you know? So in order to really support that agility, we will need to become much more agile in our modalities of communicating on board level as well. You know, and we’re seeing it. And a sort of underneath right in the underlying organizations. You know, we’re all sort of embracing and video and audio and all of that. And, boards I would say are slowly catching up but we’ll definitely catch up in the future.

Speaker 1: 16:44 So for that interface between boards and the executive suites, Marina suggestions, do you have for people who may be listening, I audience is executives large way and how could they use that their boards more effectively and wisely more judiciously?

Speaker 3: 17:06 Yeah, so I would say, you know, one of the, one of the sort of lowest hanging fruits is just how do you engage your boards and strategy. And you know, what I’ve observed is that many executive teams while they wait until they have like fully baked strategy, right proposal to go through their boards and that’s certainly one way to go about it. However, what happens then as the most boards they feel bad about like shooting that strategy down. Like unless they see any major concerns they will most probably be supportive. And that sort of closes the door to like, getting a more sort of value add in contribution. Your board. So what I always advise is like involve your boards earlier on. It doesn’t mean that boards will take a hands on management approach, but I think it’s very important to start sort of embracing the approach of like coming to the board with sort of half baked ideas.

Speaker 3: 18:07 Right. And having that understanding on both ads that what is being discussed in the boardroom is not a final product and having a common consensus that it’s okay that it’s not like that. Right. Cause we have this tradition of like everything that goes to the board needs to be perfectly polished and absolutely like final product. Right. But I think if you really want to get more value out of your board in terms of giving you a true strategic direction or maybe opening up your horizons to more opportunities as well as being a more honest, a challengers in the process, I think it is much, much easier if you involve them earlier on in your, in your strategy process.

Speaker 1: 18:54 You know, what’s interesting about that marina is one of the things that I’m hearing from people in the C Suite is there sort of a fear there is not a sense of my back will be covered, but there’s a fear that if I really honest and I went with the half back baked idea, would I then be jeopardizing my position? Within the company. And so how do you suggest people work around that and with that?

Speaker 3: 19:25 I think that’s a great point actually. And that’s why I think it’s really important to like setting the norm is really important upfront, right? So I think engaging with the board to just discuss the general way that a strategy is being, approached in the boardroom and agreeing that going forward we might come to you with something that is not a final product and getting the boards okay. You know, up front I think gives sort of the, you know, the management, the green lights to approach the boards, you know, in the meantime as well. and should give some level of comfort that that’s okay. Right. But I think setting that the new norm cause there’s certain like preexisting norms in the boardroom such as whatever you bringing to me is a final product and I’m going to assume it’s final because that’s just how we’ve done things, right?

Speaker 3: 20:21 So if I see things, things that are not perfectly polished or thought through, then I’m gonna be disappointed as a board member. However we’ve discussed in advance that this is how we’re going to do this. Sometimes because it’s more valuable for the process then that’s okay. Right. Then the board members are aware and they know, you know, so I would, I would suggest like really engaged in setting up the new norm and what’s gonna be different going forward. So the one you come to the next board meeting with that health fake strategy, you can refer to that conversation. You can say, as you may remember, you know we discussed that sometimes we will come to you with something that is not a final solution but we just really want to make sure we’re engaging you earlier. We are making you aware of this starts very early on in the process.

Speaker 1: 21:11 That is a very disruptive step strategy for both, I think management as well as for the boards of directors. Right. And so to be able to really navigate that effectively, you need almost somebody who can act as a go between between the two parties. Is that correct or no?

Speaker 3: 21:36 Yeah, so I mean, I would say absolutely. I would say the CEO can take on that role to the extent that the CEO and the chairman are a separate role. I would say to CEO can take on that role and sort of speak on behalf of the management team and as, as well as on behalf of the board team. Right. I would think that the CEO can chair that discussion and be the champion for, you know, disrupting that norm of engagement. but there is, you know, certainly in like evidence in the marketplace that, you know, about 80% of board members feel like not enough time spent on strategy and they feel like they could be adding more value in the strategy domain. So there is some evidence that one can refer to as, you know, as they start engaging in that discussion.

Speaker 1: 22:31 Where else does at that boards feel they could be more meaningful contributors, as board members?

Speaker 3: 22:39 Yeah, I would say strategy. You know, the other one is definitely around sort of innovation and digital, you know, and those two are obviously closely aligned. what I’ve also seen a lot of boards wanting to engage in more as diversity and inclusion because diversity and inclusion, is not often a topic that is brought to the board. you know, when we think of like all the human capital matters that are brought to the board, they’re really only the matters of the highest highs sort of strategic importance and perhaps the succession plan for the top team and you know, very select topics that go to the board. and sometimes the, DNIs not one of them, but I’ve seen that whenever Dni is not one of them, that boards are, you know, requesting to have that discussion because they understand that the way the company is approaching Dni currently in the marketplace has a massive impact on its reputation. Right? It’s that reputation is that employer reputation in the market place. And so they want to be part of that conversation.

Speaker 1: 23:54 So what I’m hearing you say is boards and directors are lucky for a more meaningful, a more integral relationship with the company. They really want to be able to, it’s not necessarily leave a mark, but they want to be able to contribute in a way that adds value to the organization.

Speaker 3: 24:19 Correct, Correct. I mean, really why they’re there is they want to feel like they’re adding value. and, and so they’re looking for different ways to do this on, you know, board meetings. So one way, but you know, more and more board members are trying to find ways to have more touch points within the organization and going like minus two or minus three levels right below the CEO level and C Suite level to really, you know, get a sense of like what is going on, you know, what’s the culture like, what are employees feeling and what should we be thinking about? And, even some boards go as far as to have some of the employee representatives occasionally or regularly join the boards, right. In order to make sure that they’re capturing that employee sentiment as well.

Speaker 1: 25:11 You know, when you go minus two minus three levels within an organization, that means as leaders within an organization, you have to be pretty secure about your culture, your employee’s sense of engagement. Which could be troublesome when you think that only three out of 10 people in companies right now feel that they’re engaged or say that they’re fully engaged and that’s a national norm. The Gallup has found in their research worldwide, it’s only 15%. So I think that also makes some of that push back that companies may feel in terms of letting boards in. And at the same time, what I’m hearing you say, Marina is boards may have some wonderful experience even around those kinds of issues facilitate the company’s growth.

New Speaker: 26:13 Absolutely. And I think, you know, if an organization is such that the communication, you know, is only possible through the CEO and only with the C Suite, then I would say that’s definitely a warning sign. Right? And, I think in order for board to really have a meaningful contribution and to really have a good sense of what is going on in order to lead this organization into the future, they need to understand, you know, have that full picture. And if that means that employees are not engaged, well that’s also something for the board to be aware of and start thinking about and make sure it’s on top of management’s priority list. So I think hiding it is not really adding any value, to be honest.

Speaker 1: 27:03 Right. So one of the things that you’ve also talked about, Marina, is what are the wonderful things about participating in boards Is it really can be a beginning, a stepping stone in a sense of leaders looking at their legacy. What do they leave? So who’d you speak to that a little bit?

Speaker 3: 27:25 Yes, absolutely. Yes, I agree. I think it’s, unfortunate that, you know, typically in a leaders at a certain level, right, both male and female there are just so busy with their daily jobs and it’s really hard to find time to think about anything that goes beyond that. and you know, I’m seeing more and more organizations, however, engaging and making sure that their leaders are being placed on boards of other organizations, which I think is a great, great initiative, you know, cause at the certain level, you know, in order to continue to grow and evolve, you need that external experience. So I think from the organization perspective, it’s a great way to continue to keep your, you know, your top employees growing and developing even at the C Suite level. From an employee perspective, however, it could be a beautiful way to, to have a legacy and leave a legacy that goes beyond your day job.

Speaker 3: 28:34 Right. And if you, and if you think about it, what about, you know, what better place is there then to serve on a board of directors because arguably a board of directors is the most important top team in an organization that has massive ripple effect, you know, on the top management team and then how those managers lead the organization and ultimately how each and every single employee feels about that organization as well as each and every customer in the marketplace and stay colder in the marketplace. So the ripple effect is massive for a board that is able to meaningfully contribute, you know? And so I think it’s a beautiful way to expand your legacy, you know, to think about maybe other industries or other missions you’re passionate about, but perhaps you’re not, you know, thinking about it in a sense of leaving your job that you’re looking for ways to be involved.

Speaker 3: 29:28 And I think board membership could be a beautiful way to still be engaged and have a meaningful contribution. another way to do that is also to serve on a board of a nonprofit organization, I think that’s also something that people often don’t think about because when we think about nonprofits, we think about, you know, serving food or, you know, doing something, more like a one off activity or a recurring activity. But I think a board, board role in a nonprofit could be a beautiful way to leave a legacy because, you know, nonprofits really need more strategic support and there are often lacking, like at their management level, they’re lacking people with like business background, with, you know, true set of strategic, business financial skills. And so for us, coming from the business world, that’s an easy way to give back. You know, and you know, nonprofits are so hungry for those types of skills and it’s nice because in a way it’s limited, right? It’s limited to, a few board meetings in a year and then in between as much as you can engage in will always be appreciated. But you know, it is, it is somewhat limited and manageable with a full time corporate job.

Speaker 1: 30:49 Are there resources or places people can go if they’re interested in participating in a board position, particularly for not for profits?

Speaker 3: 30:59 Yes, absolutely. So, there is, there are online board matching platforms. Some of that are, some of them are complimentary, some of them, you know, charge a fee, the complimentary ones that I’m aware of, our charities strong as well as board not USA and I can send those resources, you know, over so that you can share with your audience. And those are just like a beautiful way to connect with a nonprofit. So the way it works is you put together your profile and then nonprofits, we’re looking for people with your skills. They would reach out to you, you know, schedule a conversation and we are seeing many, many beautiful connections being established that way. Wonderful. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:46 Other thoughts that you have that you would like to share from your years of experience in working at both sides of the sphere in a sense with the boards and with the executive team?

New Speaker: 32:01 Yeah, I would just, I just want to read to Ray that I think, you know, the mission of this podcast is a very important one. you know, legacy is coming. You know, I’m becoming more and more something that is extremely relevant to all of us. You know, whether on corporate or a nonprofit side, we’re all looking for deeper meanings. You know, we’re trying to contribute something that is bigger than us and bigger than just today. but what I would also offer, and as I just shared, you know, leaving a legacy doesn’t always mean just exclusively Charity on nonprofit work. You know, the ways that one can do this in the corporate world, you know, whether it’s through a board membership in another organization or maybe starting an initiative within your own organization.

Speaker 3: 32:55 and on top of that I would just also say, you know, what’s important, and go sort of hand in hand in that or you know, with that is I’ve seen a lot of corporate executives, female and male struggling with this idea of personal identity and personal branding within the corporate. You know, cause we often think that we are just our title. I am VP of so and so and that’s it. You know, start thinking about what you as individuals stand for, you know, in the professional context and your day job. It, you know, is really one element of it. But what are some of the other elements of it? You know, it could be a nonprofit, you know, contribution. It could be a contribution to another company. It could be that you launch your own little project on the sign, but think about what do you want to be known for as individual, you know, and do not get sort of boxed into just being your corporate title because you don’t have to.

Speaker 1: 33:55 I think that is incredible advice right now. And it resonates so much with what we’re seeing of the new generations coming into the workplace. And if we’re going to really embrace all of our generations, we really need to think that way, don’t we?

Speaker 3: 34:13 Absolutely. I think the new generation is much more entrepreneurial, which doesn’t mean they want pursue corporate jobs, but they’re really becoming like entrepreneurs. Right. And they’re thinking about their corporate jobs in the context of their bigger personal mission. and I think that’s, you know, what all of us are sort of slowly catching up with and starting to do because that’s the future.

Speaker 1: 34:36 Yes. Marina, thank you so much. This time has gone so fast. if anybody listening to this would like information about Marina and how to contact her, we’d be glad to, work that out with Marina because her knowledge of boards of directors is incredible and it could be very useful to many of you, I’m sure. So thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 35:05 Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thanks everyone.

Speaker 1: 35:10 Okay. Okay. I need to just stop the recording.