Speaker 1: 00:01 So now we’re starting to record. Okay. Are you ready?

Speaker 2: 00:08 I’m ready. Let’s do it.

Speaker 1: 00:09 Okay. Hello everybody. This is Lois Sonstegard and today I’m here with David Dibella. I met David Dibella on the set of the Marshall Goldsmith documentary shooting and it was such an incredible experience and as I got to meet Dave, but I said, oh, I really want to share his knowledge and wisdom with our audience because he has some incredible experiences in China. And then also, as part of Marshall’s, stakeholder centered coaching, 100 people that he has specially selected to work with and to really, help carry forward his work. So David, I’ll let you take a moment and say hello and introduce yourself as you would like.

Speaker 2: 01:05 Sure. Hi everyone. I’m really happy to be there. Be here, sorry. And, I met Louis on the set, as you said, of the Marshall Goldsmith documentary. my background, is, as a leadership coach, and facilitator. And I spent a significant amount of China of time in China as well. and so I think that’s, that’s where most of our conversation will be focused on. but, that’s the majority of my work. currently I help leaders, I help businesses, to navigate to the, the waters of, leadership. So, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 01:48 You are so welcome. So David, how did you get started in China? It’s, I think many people want to have really good relationships in China, but very few do it effectively. You have a rich history of work in China. So how did you get started?

Speaker 2: 02:08 Sure. well my, family has an interesting connection with China. going back a few generations actually. and, most, most immediately my, my uncles were, kind of brought up in a, in a Chinese community in Peru. and so all my uncles practice Chinese martial arts when they were younger. and I grew up in the states and, growing up around my uncles, I’ve kind of heard about it. And, this kind of led me into as a teenager, interest in eastern philosophy. So Buddhism, that was the thing like that. and I was, I had a lot of energy, so my mom decided, hey, you know what, you should go and practice martial arts. So, so I did that, starting from the age of, about 14, 15 years old. Wow. And yeah, and by the time I got to university, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do actually.

Speaker 2: 03:07 I didn’t know what a direction I wanted to, to follow. and luckily enough, the University of Houston where I went to university was offering a, Chinese language course. I thought, hey, this would be kind of interesting. You know, maybe it’ll help me make sense of some of the things that I’ve read before. So I started doing that. I really liked it. It was very challenging. in my family we speak a couple of different languages, all of them being Latin based languages. So it was very different to anything I had learned before. And my second year of learning that they started offering a major in Chinese culture and I had the bug and you know, so I just, I went, I went for it, I enjoyed it. And, I got a bachelors degree in Chinese culture, so I’m a sinologist by training.

Speaker 2: 03:58 I worked after graduation I got a secondary degree. but eventually I thought to myself, you know, I’m not really using this degree. I’m not really doing much with it and I’m not fluent in Chinese either. Although I, you know, I, I know some histories and cultures and some of the foundation’s language, I don’t feel confident in my speaking ability. So it was a good time work-wise. and things I was still in my twenties. It made sense. I quit work, got a three month towards visa, bought a one way ticket and landed in Beijing in early 2007. And that’s kind of where, you know, it all happened. I, found a job. I really enjoyed myself there. I picked up those parts of the language that I was missing relatively quickly. I met my wife there, started a life there, started a business there. so I was really immersed in the culture and that’s where, a lot of my experiences around China were informed.

Speaker 1: 05:03 So David, when you started working in China, was that with a multinational company? Was it with a Chinese company? Where did you begin?

Speaker 2: 05:13 Yeah, so in my second month there, I got a job working for a British conglomerate, so they, their China operation, was mainly focused on commercial real estate development. And so I started working as a consultant. It was in a field, totally different from what I had done before. I was in sales, oil and gas salesman, renewables, before doing that. So it was something kind of new to me. but I guess the hiring manager, like what I said and so they hired me. Yeah. And I, I did that for a little while. I got promoted pretty quickly. I was the only foreigner that could really speak Chinese. and so that gave me a huge leg up in terms of building relationships. In terms of, kind of understanding the environment. and so eventually in that company, I was promoted to a role where I had, I had to take charge of the learning and development, of the employees. And so I was reporting directly to the China’s CEO. I was very young at the time and given a lot of responsibility. but it was really fun and that’s where I really learned how, how interesting and how valuable, training and development, can really be. So that’s where I really, I really got started, as far as that goes. later I left that company and moved to Shanghai and I started doing that, full time on my own.

Speaker 1: 06:46 Got It. So David, one of the things that I connected or resonated with me with you when we met was it’s not only that coaching piece that we gained from Marshall Goldsmith cause we share that in common, but it was also that sense of you have the, my background is more Japan. It’s not China, China focus. But what I’ve realized as I’ve done business in Japan is that where many companies fail is culture. In Asian cultures especially, it’s very difficult to pull that together and understand it if you didn’t have knowledge of language.

Speaker 2: 07:28 Absolutely. I agree 100%. it’s like, what Peter Drucker said, right? Culture eats strategy for breakfast. So a lot of companies they go, they have this fantastic plan that looks great on paper. maybe they have some consultants who did like a study abroad in Asia. they come back and they think they know everything. I mean one of the, one of the things I hear most often is, you know, in regards to China and doing businesses, people have this dream, like there’s a billion people like Martin to be like, I can sell to a billion. Well, you got to get them to like buy into what you’re doing before he, before they’ll buy it. First of all. And second of all, I mean there are, there are a lot of hurdles, right? Not only are the, are there linguistic and cultural hurdles, but I mean, just like legal and you know, there are other things involved. It’s not just like, oh, there’s a billion people just waiting for your product or service. It doesn’t work that way.

Speaker 1: 08:25 So in your experience, what are some of the biggest mistakes that companies make in doing business in China? What do you want to wait?

Speaker 2: 08:35 Yeah, probably, probably that kind of Gung Ho attitude being a little bit too eager. yeah so, so back to your point about language, right? I mean, I don’t think that, and this is a, an assumption that I had going in, which was then proven false to me. I’m not sure how it is in Japan, but you don’t need know the language to be successful there. learning the languages is a significant time investment. it helps in many ways, but there are ways to make money in China without speaking the language. That’s the unfortunate truth, you know? but, well for people like you and me who have spent a lot of time, learning language and culture, but that being said, again, I mean if you’re going to spend time there, I mean, why not? You know, we have the expectation that when people come to the US they learn English. I think it should be the same when you go, you moved to another country, you should learn the local language, you should like local customs. And then when you go and you have business meetings, I mean, obviously that’s only going to help you, right? Whether it be just having conversation in a language that is made it to them. or just in the fact that, you know, Chinese people know how hard their languages to learn. And so by you making the effort, it goes a long way.

Speaker 1: 09:53 They respect that, don’t they?

Speaker 2: 09:55 They do. They do. So I would say people going in, you know, they don’t do enough due diligence. They don’t do enough preparation. They don’t spend enough time there. They just find like, you know, like an agency or consultant or somebody and they think that, you know, they can just kind of pass off their China business, all their due diligence to someone else. I think it’s wise to just spend a bit more time there before you jumped in.

Speaker 1: 10:20 So when you say that companies pass off their due diligence, that means that literally at their pep and passing, they’re the responsibility to the China entity. and then how are they then looking at fit and how they traverse that culture and the, what’s going on in the business so they can really be effective?

Speaker 2: 10:49 Yeah, it’s, it seems like a lot of, a lot of people have done that. you know, and I, I know people who own companies that, assist in these kinds of services. I mean, a lot of trust is involved. I mean, in business in general, but I would say more so in Asia, right. trust is a big deal. Yeah. And so, you know, you can’t just say, oh, hey, you know what you’ve got, you can manufacture what I want. Right? Therefore, it makes sense that we do business together. Right? Or you’ve got a need that I can fill, so therefore we should do business together. It’s not that simple. and so if first of all, I mean just for prudent sake, right? If you don’t know, the background, the history, the environment in which your partners are working and then it’s hard for you to really them and you can’t do that, then you don’t know if they’re a trustworthy partner. in the short term it might be okay. In the long run it might, you know, you might end up shooting yourself in the foot.

Speaker 1: 12:04 so David, we tend to be in the US short term focused. You know, we’re lucky in Q one Q two Q three ship for results. Asia tends to like get things more longterm. Do you find that to be a problem in this relationship building or, or no?

Speaker 2: 12:23 Yeah, it can be. I mean, you know, you used to hear horror stories. there are plenty of books on it. I mean, just, you know, Americans going to Asia, in my case, I mean, I read a lot of case studies with China and I’ve heard a lot of horror stories around Americans going there and thinking they could, you know, have a few meetings, not knock out the business and then go back home. And then it turns out that, you know, they don’t get any business before they go home or they have to extend their stay and extend their stay and extend their stay because they just can’t quite crack the night. and oftentimes these relationships are not built, you know, in the boardroom, you know, they’re built over dinner, they’re built over drinks, they’re built over Karaoke, you know, in more personal settings. And that’s really big for Chinese people is that they get to know you as a person because then, you know, they’ll know whether or not you’re someone that they would like to do longterm business with. But if you go in with, you know, exclusively having the mentality that let’s get this done now that doesn’t really communicate a message of longterm sustainable partnerships.

Speaker 1: 13:29 Right. So part of what I’m, you know, what we’ve talked about is that the difficulty of culture, Chinese culture is very unique. Can you talk a little bit about that in terms of doing business and understanding culture?

Speaker 2: 13:46 Sure. Well, I mean, you know, Confucius said “if you want to change the world, you know, when the long term thing over a thousand years, you plan trees. If you want to change the world in the midterm, you educate the children”. All right? I mean, they have these ideas like I’m, there’s an expression which is you don’t pull the sprout up, you know, from its roots. which is this idea of when, when, when developing relationships, when developing people, you don’t want to rush it. And so now this is traditional Chinese culture. Obviously in modern society there are, there are some exceptions, but generally speaking, people have this mindset of you can’t do things too fast because if you do, you compromise the quality. And I feel like sometimes in the u s culture we have this, we have this hustle culture or we have this, you know, we put a premium on it. You looked on Linkedin, everyone’s like, yeah, I’ll go and for something that’s, that’s fine. I mean for the kind of motivational pep talk, I think that that’s probably okay. but anything, anything worth doing, is worth spending some time on.

Speaker 1: 15:01 Other pitfalls that you think companies should think about if they want to avoid making some mistakes? Doing Business in China? I’m hearing really think through culture and the longterm ness of what it takes to build relationship. I’m really taking the time to understand people. That’s being a little bit more, I think, critical in, in Chinese culture. What else?

Speaker 2: 15:31 Well, China is, China is learning, how to do things. that it may be missed out on, over the past several decades.

Speaker 1: 15:46 Like what?

Speaker 2: 15:48 Well, it really wants to be recognized on the world stage. I mean, if you, if you take the concept of faith, for example, right? The Chinese concept of, not being humiliated, right? Saving face, and then you just extend that out to China as a country. it’s prevalent there as well. Right? I mean, not only Xi Jinping, but, but, but the people, the national culture as a whole, they know that there are some stereotypes which exist especially, you know, like the tourists, they go out and, you know, they’re not always the most, socially aware, you know, until you have things like that. but for a lot of times people, they, they’re aware of that and they, they don’t like that. So they, they would like to be recognized. They would like to be respected, as a global player, as a global citizen. but due to history and education, obviously, that, that will take some time, for them to get there. And it’s a big country too. so, but I think being aware of that, that, you know, they’re quickly trying to catch up and that’s where that paradox comes in is that they need to be quick. But traditionally, culturally they’re not always quick.

Speaker 1: 17:02 Yeah. So David given the culture and language, you’ve got the language, which is fabulous. do you do coaching, executive coaching? Do you use the Marshall Goldsmith Stakeholder’s center coaching? Do you do that in China or, is that more difficult there?

Speaker 2: 17:25 I do. And I do it in Chinese. So my original assumption, my,

Speaker 1: 17:34 I just want the audience to hear this. You do the coaching and you do it in Chinese because that is, it’s difficult enough to do it in your native language to get the nuances of what somebody is saying. But it is incredible impressive that you do this in Chinese. So go on and speak more about what you do and how you do it.

Speaker 2: 17:55 Sure. so my initial limiting belief around that and why I was hesitant, in the beginning actually was that I felt from reading Marshall’s books and, and learning about his methodology and then getting certified that it might be a little bit too, maybe assertive or aggressive for, the Chinese audience. but then I did some experiments, I started sprinkling some of it in and then I found that it actually, it works. And so, you know, I think at a, like an a neuroscientific level, we’re all, we’re all more or less the same, right? We’ve got the same hardware, just slightly different software. so if you can, if you can speak to that, that hardware piece, if you, if you can understand a little bit about human psychology, which I think the Marshall Goldsmith methodology does well, then you can, you can kind of bypass some of those, those cultural things. Right. Also, probably for me, because I am a foreigner, they probably give me some benefit of the doubt. Like by, just by seeing my face, they’d probably think, well, I’m going to be a little bit open to his, you know, his foreign ways, in order to be nice. And then maybe, so maybe that makes it a little bit easier for me. I’m, I’m not sure. I haven’t spoken with too many other Chinese speaking, uh, Goldsmith coaches. but I find that the methodology works

Speaker 1: 19:21 great. So you do, you do a lot of executive coaching, not only with Chinese companies and executives, you do it, here in the US, other parts of the world. Would you like to please tell us a little bit about that?

Speaker 2: 19:38 Sure. So I really got my start in coaching training and facilitation while in China. Okay. And so it really kind of, that was kind of the filter that was kind of the Lens in which I viewed that thing. and a lot of people in China, they take this pretty seriously. I mean, they still have room to develop. And in terms of their thinking around, coaching, right? I mean, even in the u s some people are still a little bit hesitant to hire a coach, right. in China, probably more so. but they’re coming around, where, because that’s where I got my start, so later when I wanted to expand. So I kind of started very China specific. At the very beginning I was only doing it in Chinese and then I branched out and I became kind of Asia wide.

Speaker 2: 20:33 And so then I was doing, more work in places like Taiwan and Japan and Korea and Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, etc. And, so then I’ll always, I’m going back to English except for Taiwan, but I’m going back to English. mostly, and then for them to do group coaching, right. Where we have, you know, people from all over the place, you might have some Australians who might have to meet with European and so then it will be in English. then around 2016 or so, we moved the family back to the US from China. we’ve got two kids. So, you know, for education reasons and being near my parents and all that. So we moved over. and I had a lot of, again, limiting beliefs thinking, oh man, you know, this stuff, I, all my best stories are based in China.

Speaker 2: 21:23 Like, what am I, you know, what am I going to tell people? What am I going to say? You know? but again, I was proven wrong. I mean, you know, if you, if you follow the methodology, you know, you a good, I think a good coach can be a good coach. And yes, there are some slight nuances and you know, cultural things here and there. But really, for me at least, I’ve found that I’ve been able to really leverage a lot of those experiences in coming back to the US part of it might be similar to Japan that we are, you and I, were immersed in cultures that were very much high context.

Speaker 1: 22:01 Yes.

Speaker 2: 22:02 And so perhaps that allows you to pick up some things from the environment and then react based on those things. And so coming back and being a lower context culture, perhaps it makes it a little bit easier to navigate.

Speaker 1: 22:15 Right. I think one of the most valuable things that I learned growing up in Japan was that sense of you feel people, you have a sixth sense that’s out there that’s gathering data all the time and you feel energy. You feel what is happening at an internal level. And that’s something, I mean I just treasured that because as a consultant and as a coach, it is that sixth sense that I think makes me effective. And I think because of your Chinese experience and having immersed yourself in that culture, you’ve probably developed that sixth sense also. But it’s such a gift that you bring back because you have an intuition that, I think many people never cultivate because they don’t have that experience that’s caused them to develop it.

Speaker 2: 23:12 Yeah, absolutely. And perhaps in Japan, more southern China. you know, my experience with Japanese people is that they’re very conscious of their surroundings and what’s going on.

Speaker 1: 23:26 [inaudible] growing up as one of the things that you’re taught is always watch your peripheral vision. And so in the peripheral vision is it’s what you, you take in of the person without any direct context. So it’s that, but actually that’s around why is it that you use Marshall Methodology and what, what is it that you like about coaching?

Speaker 2: 23:52 so when we were in San Diego for the conference, on the, when we, well, during the filming, so, I forget which day it was, but when we were with frank and Chris,

Speaker 1: 24:05 yes. And so I sat down with coffee and Frank Wagner, everybody, those are two Marshall Goldsmith, coaches that trained, have trained all of us probably. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:18 Yeah. So, you know, Frank Wagner is the guy who Marshall Goldsmith tasks to basically create a formula, create a method out from Marshall’s, what Marshall did and does, to then teach others. And so we’ve all benefited from, from it, from that. And, and so I was sitting down with frank for lunch and I, and I, you know, and I picked up my phone and I said, frank, I got to tell you something, the biggest compliment I can give you. He goes, oh, it’s that same certification. Your certification is the only one that I have ever paid for out of pocket.

Speaker 1: 24:54 Oh, interesting.

Speaker 2: 24:56 So, so I’m, I’m certified in numerous things, but it’s usually been, you know, a, a client requested as part of the program or you know, a, a partner of mine, you know, we negotiate or, you know, it’s given to me. I’ve never, I’ve never paid my own personal money for any certification until I came across the Marshall Goldsmith, coaching certification. And the reason I did that is because looking into it and then thinking it through the ROI is just so huge. I mean, it’s something that, it makes so much sense once, once you get it. and you know, it pays for itself. So, and so I, I gave that compliment to it, to frank and, you know, he was, he was, he was touched and he asked me similar questions around, you know, does it work in China and this and that. And, yeah, it really does.

Speaker 2: 25:48 and to me, what works about it and what I, what I like about it when I take back with me, actually, I think at its core, it really, because Marshall was a Buddhist. So I think there’s some, there’s some strong connecting pieces within their, that Chinese people can relate to. So we ask people to have humility, courage, and discipline. And these are things which I’ve come to understand as being very important through martial arts practice, through living in China. and finally through being a coach. So you have to be humble enough to recognize that you’re not perfect. You’ve got some weak areas, you know, and, to accept when people give you feedback, that takes a lot of humility, to have the courage to listen and not say, oh, hey, wait a minute. You know, but, and, you know, give a list of excuses, but actually really listen. and think about, okay, maybe I’ve made some mistakes. How can I change things? Right? How can I do things differently? How can I, how can I tweak my behavior? And then having the discipline to actually do it and follow through on your action plan. You know, I think those are things that any human who has spent time studying anything and trying to master something will immediately understand,

Speaker 1: 27:12 You know, isn’t that it? That is so true. humility, courage and discipline. It seems so simple. And, but it is also one of the most difficult things. And you’re right, it is very Asian and it probably comes from the various philosophies that are so embedded in Asian culture, which Marshall has really honed, I think, to, be universal. It works any with any philosophy really. but that, that sense that especially the humility, I think is unique to what he does. but you’re seeing that more and more in the literature as well. Other additional thoughts that you have that you would like to share? Our time is almost over David. It’s gone so quickly. We may come back and do some more because I think there’s, I would love to, which you’re great. You have such wisdom that I, I just would like to make sure that people get as much of your wisdom as we can possibly get. So last minute thoughts that you would like to share.

Speaker 2: 28:23 Well, I’m not sure how much wisdom I have, but I’ll, I’ll share as much as you will. you know, I think coaching is for me of all of the different leadership topics that exist, you know, you can go on LinkedIn and browse numerous articles about, you know, leaders need to do x, y, and Z. Yeah, I, I was reflecting back the other day and up to this point I, I’ve, I’ve worked with in various capacities, whether it be training, whether it be one on one coaching group coaching about 30,000 individuals. And it went by so quickly. I didn’t realize, I mean, I, I look back and I think that’s a lot of people, like that’s a lot of people that I have influenced or you know, who have done something with my ideas or with other people’s ideas that I’ve mentioned, you know. so I fought back, you know, I need to be more mindful about, how I’m approaching things, how I’m packaging things. Because, you know, after a few more years it could be 50,000 and then eventually 100,000. And you know, and I’m not like a, I’m not doing like online marketing. So these are all face to face interactions. These are all people who I’ve actually met. I’ve shaken her, shaking their hand. Great. so for me in that reflection, I thought you, the one thing that I’ve seen as being the most beneficial leadership skillset is the ability for a leader to coach others. And so not only am I coaching leaders, but I am also teaching them how to coach others. And now when you’re managing people, the methodologies are a little bit different from what you and I use. and because they have constant interaction, there’s, there’s a power distance between them.

Speaker 2: 30:09 You know, there’s, there’s certain factors that make it a little bit different from how you and I would normally coach a client. but I found that that coaching is really the thing. [inaudible] excuse me. Coaching is really the thing that with a few tweaks here and there, and you don’t have to be a perfect coach, but you start doing things that resemble coaching more and more. You find that, you know, within an organization things can, things can change for the better. I’ve seen it with my own eyes and it’s just really fantastic. how beneficial it can be to people.

Speaker 1: 30:42 Yeah. And with all the statistics today in terms of employee engagement, if we can improve it 5%, 10%, it’s, it makes a big difference in an organization. Absolutely. David, thank you so much. Before we go, I want to make sure that everybody knows we will have information available about David and how to contact him. So, please let us know if you would like additional information. We’ve also put it with the podcast here so you have that available to you. David, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your experiences. It’s just really wonderful. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 31:25 Thank you as well Lois, and I’m looking forward to more of these.

Speaker 1: 31:28 Great. Thanks everybody. We’ll talk to you again in a few days.

Speaker 2: 31:35 Bye.

Speaker 1: 31:36 Okay, I’m going to turn off the recording. Yeah. But I have to put my glasses on to see where that is.